The end of the world is nigh.

[sutty27]

You're going to have to explain to me how and why a Brexited EFTA'd UK wouldn't end up in Schengen, when the 4 only other EFTA members states are all in Schengen:

Alternatively, I'd love a go with your crystal ball, clearly it's the sole working model on the planet

 

How old are you? 5?

Absolutely not.

 

What I think is that no serious Brexiter is dumb enough to want to restrict residency in a Brexited UK based on the Lichtenstein model.

 

Only rabid xenophobes/nationalists and the terminally idiotic economically-illiterate

 

You lot are so funny, first we will have to continue accepting every Tom Dick an Harry as part of a trade deal with the EU.

 

I prove you wrong.

 

Now we will have to be part of Schengen if we want to trade with the EU.

 

We trade with them now and we aren't part of Schengen, no reason at all to believe that leaving the EU and trading with the EU will result in joining Shengen.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 15:04 ----------

 

What I think is that no serious Brexiter is dumb enough to want to restrict residency in a Brexited UK based on the Lichtenstein model.

 

Only rabid xenophobes/nationalists and the terminally idiotic economically-illiterate

 

That one of the main concerns of just about everyone that wants out, immigration is the single biggest issue and without residency they won't be migrating here, I am sure though that we will do as Lichtenstein does and issue residency visa's to the right people.

 

Insults aren't very becoming and are rarely affective as a means to counter an argument.

Edited March 30, 2016 by sutty27

[L00b]

You lot are so funny, first we will have to continue accepting every Tom Dick an Harry as part of a trade deal with the EU.

 

I prove you wrong.

You haven't.

 

You've proved that the smallest EEA country, which is the size of Handsworth and a bit, can restrict new residency permits every year. Who'd have thought?

 

You've claimed and asserted a lot of other things. But proved none of them.

Now we will have to be part of Schengen if we want to trade with the EU.

I bet none of Iceland, Norway, and particularly Switzerland and Liechtenstein, were particularly thrilled at the idea of signing up to Schengen.

 

Can you guess why they still did?

We trade with them now and we aren't part of Schengen, no reason at all to believe that leaving the EU and trading with the EU will result in joining Shengen.

We're in the EU now, and staying out of Schengen has at all times been the UK's prerogative since before even 1985 when the Agreement was first negotiated and signed.

 

Once we're out of the EU and want "back in from afar" (EFTA), we the 5th global economy of 60-odd millions don't get dictate terms to the 1st global trading bloc, the EU of 350-odd millions, nor to the 2 states that effectively run the EU (without influence, interference and self-serving blanket-pulling from the Brexited UK anymore) and which both bracket the UK as global economic powers (Germany 4th, France 6th) and together dwarf it. Nothing remotely scaremongering about that, it's basic geopolitics and economics.

 

Many Brexiters clearly lack a basic international perspective. Unsurprisingly so (else they most probably wouldn't be Brexiters ). Here's news: the UK doesn't, and never has, existed in an international vacuum. That's why most Brexiters (the less serious sort) can't begin to understand the economical risk of the Brexiting UK gifting its intra-EU export markets wholesale to remaining-in-EU competitors. The Brexiters' logic seems to take for a given that foreign competition, EU and not, is incapable of matching and beating the UK's goods and services, once these would be stripped of the competitive advantage which being in the EU confers. Well, I have news for them...

 

BTW, I'm still waiting for your explanation about how and why a Brexited UK after gaining EFTA membership wouldn't have to sign up to Schengen. The historical evidence provided by Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein says that it most definitely would. Over to you

That one of the main concerns of just about everyone that wants out, immigration is the single biggest issue and without residency they won't be migrating here, I am sure though that we will do as Lichtenstein does and issue residency visa's to the right people.

The UK has at all times been, and remains, in full control of its borders and of the residency rights for non-EU immigrants.

 

Do you want to look at the governments' record and stats for non-EU immigrants, lately? Bearing in mind the introduction and strict enforcement of the Canadian- and Australian-like PBS system since 2008?

Insults aren't very becoming and are rarely affective as a means to counter an argument.

They're only insulting if you consider yourself insulted, and only hurt if they are fitting Edited March 30, 2016 by L00b

[sutty27]

You haven't.

 

You've proved that the smallest EEA country, which is the size of Handsworth and a bit, can restrict new residency permits every year. Who'd have thought?

 

Which proves you are wrong, if they can get the deal that allows them to opt of Free movement of citizens then we can.

 

Freedom of movement allows citizens of the European Union to move freely around the European Union and settle anywhere within its territory.

 

The bold is the bit you are ignoring, Liechtenstein is in the free trade area but citizens of the European Union don't have the right to settle in its territory.

[tzijlstra]

Nope my argument is that we can be in the European free trade area without being in then schengen area and without having to give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

THE UK IS NOT IN SCHENGEN, HAS NOT BEEN IN SCHENGEN AND WILL NOT LIKELY JOIN SCHENGEN. I don't know how much clearer anybody can state that. (A clarification on L00b's earlier point - Norway, Liechtenstein, Iceland and soon Switzerland are not part of Schengen, so they have border controls if they want, but are allowing the free movement of workers - ie. you have a job there, you get to live there.

 

No point planning for that which won't happen, we will be in the free trade area, we won't be in the schengen area and we won't give everyone in the EU the right to live and work in the UK.

 

Being in the free trade area will come with the free movement of people and goods agreement. There is no way the EU will give that up as it is one of the founding principles, the same agreement applies to Norway, Liechtenstein and soon Switzerland.

 

No one as argued that Liechtenstein compares to the UK in any way shape or form, to think they have is just dumb.

 

I have simply pointed out that tiny insignificant little Liechtenstein managed to get access to the EU free trade area whilst placing restriction on the EU about who can live and work there.

 

We are members of the EU, Liechtenstein is part of the free trade area but I wouldn't be permitted to live and work there. They got the right deal and we will get the right deal.

 

Liechtenstein is part of the free movement principle, slightly different than the UK, but very close to it anyway.

 

Further clarification to disembowel your confused argument:

 

Visas and Immigration

 

The immigration laws in Liechtenstein are on a par with their neighbour Switzerland. The laws are very stringent and non EU nationals may only be considered for work permits with particular specialised, sought after skills, it is otherwise difficult to obtain a work permit. All foreign nationals outside of the EU must have a passport and may require a visa. EU members must either have a passport or a valid EU ID card. People can stay in Liechtenstein for up to three months without a residence permit.

 

Source A Dutch friend got a job in Switzerland with a bank, no surprise, he lives in Liechtenstein. All he had to do was show his passport and the contract of his employer.

 

You are clinging to this idea that the UK will suddenly become a walled garden with no immigration because you are desperately looking for anti-EU arguments, but in doing so you are constantly dismissing the positive effects of immigration, and worse, the reality that not a lot will change in terms of immigration, other than that maybe there will be fewer EU nationals and more Philipinos, Nigerians, Zimbabweans, Indians and Pakistanis.

 

The reason is simple: You have never addressed the fact (!) that the UK has a huge skills deficit that is leading to low unemployment and high migration.

Edited March 30, 2016 by tzijlstra

[sutty27]

THE UK IS NOT IN SCHENGEN

 

I didn't say it was.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 17:03 ----------

 

Being in the free trade area will come with the free movement of people

 

No it won't, Liechtenstein doesn't give EU citizens the right to settle and work and that is a fundamental part of free movement of people.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 17:07 ----------

 

 

You are clinging to this idea that the UK will suddenly become a walled garden with no immigration

 

 

You just made that up to make yourself feel good.

Edited March 30, 2016 by sutty27

[L00b]

Which proves you are wrong, if they can get the deal that allows them to opt of Free movement of citizens then I we can.

How many times...they got that deal due to their geo and population size:

Liechtenstein may, by virtue of Protocol 15 to the Agreement, on transitional periods on the free movement of persons, maintain in force until 1 January 1998 national provisions submitting to prior authorization entry, residence and employment, but shall not, however, introduce any new restrictive measures as of the date of signature of the EEA Agreement, 2 May 1992.

 

At the end of the transitional period, the transitional measures shall be jointly reviewed by the Contracting Parties, duly taking into account the specific geographical situation of Liechtenstein. Furthermore, a Declaration by the EEA Council provides that an extraordinary increase in the number of nationals from the other EEA States or in the total number of jobs in the economy, both in comparison with the number of the resident population, should be taken into account in the context of the review of the transitional measures.

 

Liechtenstein notified the Authority of the prevailing restrictive measures, applicable on 2 May 1995. Subsequently, two ordinances were adopted in which more favourable provisions, in comparison with those prevailing on that date, were laid down with respect to the entry and residence of citizens of other EEA States in Liechtenstein.

(Source)

 

Good luck arguing that the geographical situation of the UK is 'specific' (within the meaning and scope of the Liechtestein situation) and that increases in the number of nationals from the other EEA States or in the total number of jobs in the UK economy, both in comparison with the number of the resident population in the UK, are extraordinary

Freedom of movement allows citizens of the European Union to move freely around the European Union and settle anywhere within its territory.

You are mistaking the EU's freedom of establishment (that is part and parcel of the freedom of movement as it applies to EU member states) for the freedom of movement as it applies to non-EU EEA member states.

 

They are not one and the same. I've already posted about it, and made that distinction clear, and also that residency permits are required in Iceland, Norway and Switzerland, so...

The bold is the bit you are ignoring, Liechtenstein is in the free trade area but citizens of the European Union don't have the right to settle in its territory.

...per the above, I have not ignored this bold in bit at all.

 

It's you who cannot comprehend that a person can live in one country and drive to work in another, all under the title of freedom of movement as it applies to the EEA group (EU and EFTA).

 

Perhaps not surprising, from a little Englander

[sutty27]

How many times...they got that deal due to their geo and population size:

(Source)

 

Good luck arguing that the geographical situation of the UK is 'specific' (within the meaning and scope of the Liechtestein situation) and that increases in the number of nationals from the other EEA States or in the total number of jobs in the UK economy, both in comparison with the number of the resident population in the UK, are extraordinary

You are mistaking the EU's freedom of establishment (that is part and parcel of the freedom of movement as it applies to EU member states) for the freedom of movement as it applies to non-EU EEA member states.

 

They are not one and the same. I've already posted about it, and made that distinction clear, and also that residency permits are required in Iceland, Norway and Switzerland, so...

...per the above, I have not ignored this bold in bit at all.

 

It's you who cannot comprehend that a person can live in one country and drive to work in another, all under the title of freedom of movement as it applies to the EEA group (EU and EFTA).

 

Perhaps not surprising, from a little Englander

 

We wouldn't use the same argument whilst negotiating our deal, only a fool would think we would. But we would negotiate a deal for access to the free trade area and it wouldn't include the right for EU citizens to live and work here.

[tzijlstra]

I didn't say it was.

 

 

But you DID say that the UK can be in the free trade zone without being in Schengen, suggesting that the UK can't be in the EU without being in Schengen. Stop being duplicitous, or even better, start being informed.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 18:34 ----------

 

We wouldn't use the same argument whilst negotiating our deal, only a fool would think we would. But we would negotiate a deal for access to the free trade area and it wouldn't include the right for EU citizens to live and work here.

 

Says who? Seriously, I'd like to see anybody in the OUT camp to state that explicitly. They will be in for a public filleting when it turns out they are wrong.

 

Edit - also to elaborate, are you suggesting EU citizens will be denied the right to live here? Because that is how you phrased it.

[sutty27]

But you DID say that the UK can be in the free trade zone without being in Schengen, suggesting that the UK can't be in the EU without being in Schengen. Stop being duplicitous, or even better, start being informed.

Yes in response to the loony suggestion from the in campaigners that a trade deal will mean free movement of people and schengen.

 

 

Says who? Seriously, I'd like to see anybody in the OUT camp to state that explicitly. They will be in for a public filleting when it turns out they are wrong.

 

Says me.

 

Edit - also to elaborate, are you suggesting EU citizens will be denied the right to live here? Because that is how you phrased it.

 

They will be denied the right to live and work here without a residency and work visa.

[I1L2T3]

Bottom line sutty is that the EFTA members have more open borders than we do and they aren't even in the EU. You are saying that we would be in EFTA. The only guide we have to what that would mean for our border policies is EFTA.

 

But you are saying that we wouldn't have the same deal as the other EFTA members. How do you know that? And can you guarantee we won't?

 

A possible scenario is in a shock to the economy post a Brexit vote we will have hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of jobs at risk, and dependent on single market participation. The deal clincher could be free movement and you could have millions of Britons actually demanding free movement to ensure we have single market access.

 

Jobs, financial security and the ability to pay their rent/mortgage/debt will trump everything for the average person.

 

To top it all you seem to willfully ignore that what actually guarantees we stay out of Schengen is our EU membership!!