The end of the world is nigh.

[nomoney]

mass immigration,as caused to-days problem we are a small island and cannot cope.

[sutty27]

Bottom line sutty is that the EFTA members have more open borders than we do and they aren't even in the EU. You are saying that we would be in EFTA. The only guide we have to what that would mean for our border policies is EFTA.

 

With no right to live and work in one of them.

 

 

But you are saying that we wouldn't have the same deal as the other EFTA members. How do you know that? And can you guarantee we won't?

 

Nope I can't guarantee that because I wouldn't be the government.

A possible scenario is in a shock to the economy post a Brexit vote we will have hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of jobs at risk, and dependent on single market participation. The deal clincher could be free movement and you could have millions of Britons actually demanding free movement to ensure we have single market access.

Jobs won't be at risk, did you know that we one of our biggest exports to the EU is pharmaceuticals, and that we import an equal amount of pharmaceuticals from the EU, if they don't want what we have to sell, then we won't want what they have to sell. So instead of buying from them we will produce it for our own market and we currently buy more from them than they from use, we would be the winners if they refuse to trade.

 

 

Jobs, financial security and the ability to pay their rent/mortgage/debt will trump everything for the average person.

None of which will be adversely affected by leaving.

 

To top it all you seem to willfully ignore that what actually guarantees we stay out of Schengen is our EU membership!!

 

You are worrying about something that will not happen if we leave.

[I1L2T3]

With no right to live and work in one of them.

 

 

 

 

Nope I can't guarantee that because I wouldn't be the government.

 

Jobs won't be at risk, did you know that we one of our biggest exports to the EU is pharmaceuticals, and that we import an equal amount of pharmaceuticals from the EU, if they don't want what we have to sell, then we won't want what they have to sell. So instead of buying from them we will produce it for our own market and we currently buy more from them than they from use, we would be the winners if they refuse to trade.

 

 

 

None of which will be adversely affected by leaving.

 

 

 

You are worrying about something that will not happen if we leave.

 

You are utterly deluded.

 

The only one they can't live and work in is Liechtenstein but we've been through why umpteen times in this thread.

 

Do you understand what is involved in setting up a manufacturing base to produce a whole host of products we don't currently make. We have limited latent capacity in the manufacturing sector. Who is going to invest to set all the necessary infrastructure up to supply what is a relatively small market, at manufacturing costs that make export unviable? Where are we going to import the raw materials from?

[sutty27]

You are utterly deluded.

 

The only one they can't live and work in is Liechtenstein but we've been through why umpteen times in this thread.

 

Do you understand what is involved in setting up a manufacturing base to produce a whole host of products we don't currently make. We have limited latent capacity in the manufacturing sector. Who is going to invest to set all the necessary infrastructure up to supply what is a relatively small market, at manufacturing costs that make export unviable? Where are we going to import the raw materials from?

 

No you are the one that is deluded, and yes I understand what is involved in setting up a manufacturing base.

 

The UK isn't a small market, we consume far more than we export, and we import more than we export, we will trade with the EU and we will have good terms, they would be the losers if we cut all trade. Wealthy business men will invest if and when they see an opportunity to make money, and there will be a huge money making opportunity if we are no longer importing stuff from the EU.

[tzijlstra]

They will be denied the right to live and work here without a residency and work visa.

 

Including the more than one million who are currently employed? So what you are saying they (me, L00b, most of my University colleagues) will be forced to apply for a work visa and residency? because that is a surefire way to start the brain drain.

 

Just a small example, it is tantamount to telling the Universities in the UK to give 20 % of their staff a work-visa, to give an awfully large amount of students a study-visa, including very much needed PhD students. I can tell you know, Universities won't put up with that and, oddly, they have quite a lot of political clout. They are not alone either 64% of EU migrants to the UK has a University degree. That is three times as many as the native UK population has.

 

As L00b has pointed out time and time again, forcing visas on these people (including me) is going to force people out. I don't want the hassle and, frankly, indignity of having to apply for a piece of paper every two years or whatever sort of system you come up with. There are long term risks involved as well, I have built up Pension entitlements here, knowing I can use them in the Netherlands should I ever decide to move back, the UK out of the EU is going to make that a lot less certain, people care about that sort of thing, particularly top talent that is being attracted all over the world. In the past five years I have had tangible opportunities to pursue a career in the States, China, Denmark, the Netherlands and even Russia.

 

Even if only a hundred thousand highly educated EU-nationals in the UK decide to leave, a relatively small percentage of the total number in the UK, the UK will end up with a considerable skill shortage on top of the already existing skill shortage. The facts don't lie, the threats are real and your very narrow view (shared by too many people) is going to be responsible for a massive slump in the competitiveness of the UK. Believe it or not, the UK is on the planet Earth and the most successful nations on this planet are the most competitive.

[I1L2T3]

No you are the one that is deluded, and yes I understand what is involved in setting up a manufacturing base.

 

The UK isn't a small market, we consume far more than we export, and we import more than we export, we will trade with the EU and we will have good terms, they would be the losers if we cut all trade. Wealthy business men will invest if and when they see an opportunity to make money, and there will be a huge money making opportunity if we are no longer importing stuff from the EU.

 

No I'm not deluded. You are talking about massive economic changes and structural realignment in childish, simplistic terms as if these things can just magically happen overnight. You are ignoring the fact that the economic shock that would happen will translate into massive issues for millions of families.

 

I must say I'm the least convinced I've ever been about the virtues of Brexit. I think the arguments are utterly falling apart.

[sutty27]

No I'm not deluded. You are talking about massive economic changes and structural realignment in childish, simplistic terms as if these things can just magically happen overnight. You are ignoring the fact that the economic shock that would happen will translate into massive issues for millions of families.

 

I must say I'm the least convinced I've ever been about the virtues of Brexit. I think the arguments are utterly falling apart.

 

No you are talking about the massive economic changes and structural realignment that are just in your imagination.

 

I'm not ignoring your imagination, I'm dismissing it.

 

You are an out campaigner pretending to be on the fence.

 

---------- Post added 30-03-2016 at 20:40 ----------

 

Including the more than one million who are currently employed? So what you are saying they (me, L00b, most of my University colleagues) will be forced to apply for a work visa and residency? because that is a surefire way to start the brain drain.

 

Just a small example, it is tantamount to telling the Universities in the UK to give 20 % of their staff a work-visa, to give an awfully large amount of students a study-visa, including very much needed PhD students. I can tell you know, Universities won't put up with that and, oddly, they have quite a lot of political clout. They are not alone either 64% of EU migrants to the UK has a University degree. That is three times as many as the native UK population has.

 

As L00b has pointed out time and time again, forcing visas on these people (including me) is going to force people out. I don't want the hassle and, frankly, indignity of having to apply for a piece of paper every two years or whatever sort of system you come up with. There are long term risks involved as well, I have built up Pension entitlements here, knowing I can use them in the Netherlands should I ever decide to move back, the UK out of the EU is going to make that a lot less certain, people care about that sort of thing, particularly top talent that is being attracted all over the world. In the past five years I have had tangible opportunities to pursue a career in the States, China, Denmark, the Netherlands and even Russia.

 

Even if only a hundred thousand highly educated EU-nationals in the UK decide to leave, a relatively small percentage of the total number in the UK, the UK will end up with a considerable skill shortage on top of the already existing skill shortage. The facts don't lie, the threats are real and your very narrow view (shared by too many people) is going to be responsible for a massive slump in the competitiveness of the UK. Believe it or not, the UK is on the planet Earth and the most successful nations on this planet are the most competitive.

 

According to the in camp we won't need them anyway because all the jobs will disappear over night. Its just scaremongering and no one believes it.

[I1L2T3]

No you are talking about the massive economic changes and structural realignment that are just in your imagination.

 

I'm not ignoring your imagination, I'm dismissing it.

 

You are an out campaigner pretending to be on the fence.

 

Its your argument that we can just start making things here instead of importing them from the EU, not mine. I'm just pointing out the flaws in it.

[sutty27]

Its your argument that we can just start making things here instead of importing them from the EU, not mine. I'm just pointing out the flaws in it.

 

To counter your scaremongering about all trade ending, which isn't going to happen.

 

We import roughly the same amount of cars as we export, we import roughly the same amount of pharmaceuticals as we export, we import food that we can produce.

 

We will do just fine stop worrying about it.

[I1L2T3]

To counter your scaremongering about all trade ending, which isn't going to happen.

 

We import roughly the same amount of cars as we export, we import roughly the same amount of pharmaceuticals as we export, we import food that we can produce.

 

We will do just fine stop worrying about it.

 

Ok, convince me. Provide some economic research that backs up your optimism.