Are you really a Libertarian?

[JFKvsNixon]

Quite so.

The question is about where the balance is to be struck.

 

Isn't that the age old core political argument that people from the different parts of the political spectrum will never agree to?

[unbeliever]

Isn't that the age old core political argument that people from the different parts of the political spectrum will never agree to?

 

Indeed.

 

I think that the false presumption of absolutism is what triggered this thread in the first place.

If a person describes themselves as libertarian, it usually means that they want to reduce the size and power of government, but not eliminate it.

A person who describes themselves as socialist wants more state involvement, but usually doesn't want the state to control absolutely everything.

 

I suspect the tendency or people to misunderstand (sometimes wilfully) the practical application of all these terms is what leads to the development of alternative terms.

 

A lot of people are progressive socialists. They're usually referred to as the "left".

I'm progressive, but I'm not a socialist. Am I still "left". I think not.

 

My impression is that the "left" are progressive socialists. If you're not progressive enough, they call you "right", or you're not socialist enough they call you "right". If you're nowhere near progressive enough, or nowhere near socialist enough they call you "far right".

 

So we have 3 "right" or "far right" groups (depending on who you're talking to:

Progressive and anti-socialism. (common in the UK)

Traditionalist and socialist. (scattered everywhere)

Traditionalist and anti-socialism. (seem to be common in the US)

I fall into the first group and I will not be lumped in with the other two.

This is why I reject these "left" and "right" terms whenever they come up.

 

Then we have the matter of authoritarianism, which complicates things even further.

[El Cid]

I think that the false presumption of absolutism is what triggered this thread in the first place.

If a person describes themselves as libertarian, it usually means that they want to reduce the size and power of government, but not eliminate it.

A person who describes themselves as socialist wants more state involvement, but usually doesn't want the state to control absolutely everything.

 

 

I dont recall whether you used the term libertarian or Libertarian; I would say both are quite extreme.

Being liberal(liber, "free") is the nearest to libertarian in the politics of the UK

[unbeliever]

I dont recall whether you used the term libertarian or Libertarian; I would say both are quite extreme.

Being liberal(liber, "free") is the nearest to libertarian in the politics of the UK

 

No. They're not. As has been explained on this thread at great length, and not just by me.

[petemcewan]

SgtKate.

 

Don't leave the forum. Untangling : Libertarianism, Libertarian Socialism, Liberal Socialism,

Authoritarianism, and Anarchism- there is going to be a lot of misunderstanding.

 

I'm quite content with the following by E . Bernstein, Evolutionary Socialism (New York. Schocken.1961),

 

"There is actually no real liberal conception that does not also belong to the elements of the ideas of socialism".

[Lurgh Mor]

This thread is full of fun.

[Mister M]

This thread is full of fun.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[unbeliever]

Am I wrong to associate authoritarianism with socialism? I do.

I have 2 reasons for this.

All states that I can think of which have followed the path of socialism in name, have also been authoritarian. China, USSR etc, etc.

Socialism is fundamentally about organising things by grand design. Resources are to be pooled and used by the leaders for the greater good. This requires the leaders to confiscate all or most of the resources. If you don't have your own resources, how can you make your own decisions?

[Mister M]

Is libertarian American for Liberal. In the USA Liberal/Liberalism is an abusive term to the politicians had to invent another word.

 

As in 'Limousine Liberal'? That's the American version of the 'Champagne Socialist' in the U.K.

I think to call someone a socialist in America, is the equivalent of calling someone a **** here in Blighty

 

---------- Post added 05-04-2016 at 13:54 ----------

 

Am I wrong to associate authoritarianism with socialism? I do.

I have 2 reasons for this.

All states that I can think of which have followed the path of socialism in name, have also been authoritarian. China, USSR etc, etc.

Socialism is fundamentally about organising things by grand design. Resources are to be pooled and used by the leaders for the greater good. This requires the leaders to confiscate all or most of the resources. If you don't have your own resources, how can you make your own decisions?

 

There is a strong libertarian element in Western European socialism, organising things from the 'bottom up' - such as mutual and cooperatives.

[unbeliever]

There is a strong libertarian element in Western European socialism, organising things from the 'bottom up' - such as mutual and cooperatives.

 

That certainly sounds like collectivism. Of course socialism is also a kind of collectivism. But if it's all voluntary, is it still socialism?