Government to spend Nine million on leaflets

[tzijlstra]

Okay.

 

For a start we were part of the club in the '80s (although it went by a different name then) so I don't see how you can blame economic problems from the '80s on UK independence.

 

I didn't blame economic problems on UK independence, I pointed to UK economic recovery as being in part due to being a member of the EU, a very significant difference that is easily forgotten by Brexiters.

 

You talk about the trade deals that an independent UK would get as a matter of fact, but it's all very much a matter of opinion. The UK is not weak as your statements imply and the EU is not going to want to lose a major trading partner when a simple free trade deal is on the table. Well they are a bunch of muppets so maybe some will.

 

Firstly - what is a free trade deal? It is essentially a bilateral legally binding agreement that governs trade between two nations. It is indeed likely that the EU will want to sign a deal with Britain, in particular to keep Britain in the EEA - the highest level of free trade outside of being in the EU itself. This states that as part of the free movement of goods (which you want, because that is free trade) the EU will demand free movement of people and that the UK ensures compatibility with EU law concerning trade. Nothing will change in that respect.

 

You want facts, look at the amount of laws that Norway, Iceland and Switzerland adopt as part of the EEA that have been unilaterally decided by the EU. They do this because they need to maintain their EEA status. In fact, Norway adopts almost all EU laws without having any major influence on these rules.

 

So my argument stands - leaving the EU and joining the EEA will not significantly lower the EU-laws adopted in the UK, it will just mean the UK is sidelined in discussions and will have to try and force things through behind the scenes. I will elaborate on this as per your wish to have facts (and you can check this):

 

You used a rather baseless 50% for trade laws and 50% for everything else, you will find that the EU releases directives that get adopted by member-states in a form acceptable to them and that all these directives are bound by the treaties of the EU.

 

In the case of the UK almost all of these treaties relate exclusively to trade and some relate to the quality of the environment. The UK is already excempt from Schengen treaty law, it is excempt from Eurozone treaty law.

 

That means there is hardly any other law being adopted in the UK, that is directed by the EU, than trade-law and occasional preservation (Quality of the environment) law. This is pretty darned noticeable in recent years - the UK did not agree to the immigrant redistribution negotiations (Schengen), so it didn't have to. The UK did not have to bail out Greece (although the government chose to help a little, a purely sovereign decision). The UK does not have to agree to setting up an international anti terrorism task-force but is driving that issue in the EU - because it has that influence.

 

If you don't want to believe me that is fine, but just have a look at legislation.gov.uk - it is where all new legislation in the UK is announced. You will be very hard pressed to find anything that is not related to trade or the quality of the environment.

 

The EU is racked by unemployment, a rolling common currency crisis and all manner of other messes of it's own making. They're dumb, but I doubt they're dumb enough to burn hundreds of billions being awkward about a trade relationship with the UK.

 

We heard all the same earnest and emphatic declarations about the dire economic woes that would befall the UK if we failed to join the Euro. We refused anyway and the reverse turned out to be the reality.

 

This is typical tripe, it is irrelevant if the EU has problems or not, if it was relevant than the UK would have the same problems, it doesn't. The only reason you put this here is to put the EU down without foundation. Pretty darned ironic when you then follow it up with:

 

Convince me that this is different. Ideally using facts, rather than hypotheses dressed up as facts.

 

Have fun finding out about the facts.

 

Well back in 1975 it was referred to as the 'common market'...Then it morphed into the European Economic Community, now it's simply the EU. The bigger it gets, the more complex and restrictive it gets. Allowing even less to be achieved in a much longer timeframe.

 

There are different cultures, different religions, different everything. Now we have countries 'effectively' blackmailing us into allowing them to join (I assume you know who I mean)...It's a case of never the twain shall meet.

 

The alleged 'deal' that Cameron negotiated, depending upon who you listen to, apparently isn't legally binding, and could be turned on it's head on a sixpence. In any case, to me it seems a bit of a non-deal anyway. So for me, that's no reason to stay.

 

I believe, (wrongly or rightly) that we've been treated pretty shabbily by the EU. Paying lots of money for little in return. Yes I know we get grants for this that and the other. But isn't that just monetary ping-pong? Cut out the middle man and things might be more efficient?

 

What you describe here are feelings and you have to wonder where those feelings originate. Do they originate with the EU and what they stand for, or do they originate in a culture where it is commonplace to blame the EU when the government does something wrong? What do you actually know about the EU other than what is being fed to you through national media?

 

There is a very simple test - when you go on holiday in France, does it look and feel exactly like Germany? They do after all share a currency and they are pretty big countries. And what about Italy? They are just like Spaniards and Greeks, right?

 

The influence of the EU is massively overstated in the UK media, but when you scratch through that shallow surface you will quickly realise that the UK is the EU, just as the other countries are the EU. Even if the UK leaves the EU it is still European and it will be, as it has always been, subject to what happens on the continent.

[PeteMorris]

So when you say that we pay lots of money for little in return, you actually are not interested in what we get in return, you just don't want to pay the money.

 

I'll leave you to list all the benefits. The plain fact is, we pay more than we get back, and that's about the size of it.

[JFKvsNixon]

I'll leave you to list all the benefits. The plain fact is, we pay more than we get back, and that's about the size of it.

 

So you are judging the value of our membership of the EU solely on how much money the EU gives us?

[tzijlstra]

So you are judging the value of our membership of the EU solely on how much money the EU gives us?

 

yes, because that is the simple way out.

[truman]

Regards - insurance/assurance until you make a claim you not getting anything back, so financially you're not getting anything back for your £50.

 

You talk of getting peace of mind for your £50, but isn't that something that's a lot less tangible than the criteria that your looking for our membership of the EU, hence me asking the question.

 

So in answer to what we get for the money we pay to be members of the EU, the answer is obviously membership of the EU. Then it's up to our government to make the most of that membership.

 

Ok, when I talk about clubs, I'm talking about things like golf club membership where you have to pay a fee just to be a member, and then you have to go on to pay to use the faculties of the club on top of your fee.

 

Nope, to me a couple of hundred quid spent on insurance is a good gamble....I couldn't possibly do with that money what the insurance company will do ...are you suggesting the EU will come to our aid should the need arise? How did that go for Greece?.I'm not a golf club member so can't comment on your second point..I am a member of a car club..I have had more than my subscription's worth in deals like specially priced parts and technical assistance etc..

 

---------- Post added 14-04-2016 at 14:34 ----------

 

yes, because that is the simple way out.

 

Can you put a value on what we get back? Genuine question..

[PeteMorris]

So you are judging the value of our membership of the EU solely on how much money the EU gives us?

 

I do get the impression every question you ask is a 'leading' question, hoping to trip people up.

 

I don't like the EU, never have and I want out...it's as simple as that.

[JFKvsNixon]

you put a value on what we get back? Genuine question..

 

The value is membership of the the largest economy in the world, the EU. It really is that simple.

[tzijlstra]

Nope, to me a couple of hundred quid spent on insurance is a good gamble....I couldn't possibly do with that money what the insurance company will do ...are you suggesting the EU will come to our aid should the need arise? How did that go for Greece?.I'm not a golf club member so can't comment on your second point..I am a member of a car club..I have had more than my subscription's worth in deals like specially priced parts and technical assistance etc..

 

How did that go for Greece? Well, a hell of a lot better than if they hadn't had the insurance. There is a a reason that the Greeks, when push came to shove, voted to accept the measurements required. A vote put to them by a very socialist anti-austerity party who would 'magically' fix things until they realised that things actually cost money and they didn't have any.

[truman]

The value is membership of the the largest economy in the world, the EU. It really is that simple.

 

What does that give us that we wouldn't get otherwise?

[JFKvsNixon]

I do get the impression every question you ask is a 'leading' question, hoping to trip people up.

 

I don't like the EU, never have and I want out...it's as simple as that.

 

I'm not trying to trip people up. I just get the feeling that people try to hide the I just don't like the EU behind things like it doesn't offer us value, when in reality they wouldn't like the EU irrespective of what it offered. So I ask the questions in an attempt to try to understand the position of the person posting.

 

---------- Post added 14-04-2016 at 14:40 ----------

 

What does that give us that we wouldn't get otherwise?

 

A say/stake in the running of the world's biggest economy.