The Final Nail in the Coffin

[samssong]

Which state would that be?

The usual response .

[tzijlstra]

But there is a cost, financially and, if you live Boston or spalding, culturally as well. Is it cost worth paying? Probably? Maybe?

 

[/b]

That's all well and good, I appreciate that not everything you see and hear in the media is correct, but have you actually been to Boston lately? I have, and it's not nonsense to say that the character of the place has changed substantially over the last 5 years.

Nor can you say that hospitals, schools, and many other institutions are not very hard pressed at the moment. I can't see how 3 million extra immigrants (by 2020, gov figures,) is going to help...

 

Boston and Spalding. Two rural towns that are set in the midst of huge crop-growing areas. Lots and lots of cheap labour needed so both are handy examples of immigration causing issues. What makes you think that A) there are huge problems? B) that things will change on Brexit? These farming cooperatives will still need hundreds of workers to crawl the fields and cut lettuce. I know they do, I've done the work myself.

 

So let's talk about London, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh instead? Because that is where the vast majority of migrants end up, the immigrants you don't hear about because they come with jobs, qualifications, money and skills that the country needs. I know numerous people that have moved to the UK from the Netherlands, in Sheffield the majority are University lecturers, professors, researchers and so on, I know them due to me being part of their world I suppose, although I know of a guy who is an architect as well. Many of the EU folk with whom I did a MSc or PhD that stayed in the UK have high-paying, high-responsibility jobs. A senior-consultant at KPMG (Manchester), a system analyst for E&Y, product manager for Red Bull marketing, financial analyst at HSBC... All based in London.

 

Speaking of wars, the bit of bother in the Middle East will continue to be a bit of bother for 50 years. The whole EU army idea gains momentum and we'll need bases in the east and I don't mean Norfolk. Greece? Nah. Turkey? That would be handy!

 

NATO.

 

None of the above changes the fact that you didn't know who Turkey had invaded. You have evidently just googled the subject in an attempt to hide your ignorance.

 

What it has to do with the EU is the impending discussion of Turkeys proposed membership, should they be allowed to join if they are still holding on to territory that belongs to a current member.

 

I didn't need to Google it, I was well aware of what you referred to. I have been to Cyprus, Greece and Turkey several times. I don't appreciate you presuming my ignorance, especially in a post where you behave like a sanctimonious cow trying to get the upper hand. The EU has demands for accession to be allowed, demands of openness of press, quality of democracy and so on. Turkey does not meet those demands under Erdogan so accession isn't going to happen any time soon. The discussion is ongoing and will remain ongoing, Cyprus is part of that discussion, Cyprus in fact has the right to block Turkey's accession altogether as does Greece.

 

Please don't use masked swearing, I have edited your post in my quote as I wouldn't want my name next to such base behaviour. This is a family forum, if you dont like it please leave and allow the rest of us to have adult discussions without swearers and people like you who think it is ok to wind your finger next to your head to imply someone else has a mental illness. Many people reading this forum will struggle with mental illness every day of their lives, they don't need people like you mocking them and using their condition as an insult.

 

Moooooo!

Edited April 24, 2016 by tzijlstra

[crookedspire]

To Tzijistra, another issue with Turkey has with Cyprus is the ghost town of Varosha that Turkey has illegally occupied since 1974. If Turkey joins the EU theirs going to be conflict as many Greek Cypriots want Varosha back plus the the issue of the self proclaimed Turkish republic in the North of Cyprus .

[tzijlstra]

To Tzijistra, another issue with Turkey has with Cyprus is the ghost town of Varosha that Turkey has illegally occupied since 1974. If Turkey joins the EU theirs going to be conflict as many Greek Cypriots want Varosha back plus the the issue of the self proclaimed Turkish republic in the North of Cyprus .

 

Yes, resolving the Cyprus question is key to Turkish accession, it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Essentially Cyprus should be one island ruled under its own flag as part of the EU. Turkey will not agree to that so Turkey isn't going to get into the EU.

 

There are numerous other reasons why they won't. This is why the talks are 'ongoing' and will keep going on, especially with the dogmatic Erdogan on the throne.

[999tigger]

What I don't get here is this. There seems to be alot of people talking about the 'problems' of immigration and how coming out of Europe will solve this (less strain on our NHS etc).

 

But the last figures I saw (from an Oxford University study in 2013, from a study which ran from 1996 until 2013) suggested that of the top ten immigrant nationalities into Britain only four come from the EU (Ireland, Germany, Romania and Poland), the top immigrant nationality was India.

 

I'm undecided on which way I will vote but it seems to me that those using immigration as a reason to leave don't really know what they are talking about, it simply won't stop immigration.

 

I'm by no means an expert in the field, and things may have changed since the publication of the study I saw, but it really seems a bit silly basing an exit vote on immigration issues (which seems to be the prevailing reason amongst the people I've spoken to)

 

I'd personally like to know more from both parties before I cast my own vote.

 

I cant find it at the moment host, but I was looking at soemthing the other week more recent and it indicated the vast majority coming form the EU are from 4 countries as well. By far the largest was Poland, then Ireland and maybe Hungary and Romania. India being the largest non EU. So agreeing with you broadly on that.

 

Im undecided what way to vote, but It's not hard to see the flaws in both sides arguments. In terms of migration they tend to mix up the different issues of asylum seeker and refugees, with the broader issue of migration. Good old Sheffield forum.

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2016 at 09:51 ----------

 

To Tzijistra, another issue with Turkey has with Cyprus is the ghost town of Varosha that Turkey has illegally occupied since 1974. If Turkey joins the EU theirs going to be conflict as many Greek Cypriots want Varosha back plus the the issue of the self proclaimed Turkish republic in the North of Cyprus .

 

To join Turkey has to get agreement on 35 areas. I imagine Cyprus is one of them.

They have been negotiating since 1987.

They have only discussed 16 of hose areas.

They have achieved agreement on 1 area.

 

They arent going to be joining anytime soon, which is the OP is a complete misrepresentation of whats happening and idiotmongering. They want favours , money and some leverage (we want stuff from them), but they arent joining any time soon. If people bothered to understand what it takes to join then they wouldnt go off at a tangent and be banging on about Cyrpus. The bisas are just easier to get travel within schengen. the UK isnt in Schengen.

 

The alternative of not talking to Turkey for the relevant countries, is that millions of refugess will be let throygh and be on the borders of the actual EU countries, which will have a domino effect as they eventually end up on the borders of the counties they really want to go to. It makes sense to have a firewall by using Turkey to control them if we can.

[samssong]

Yes, resolving the Cyprus question is key to Turkish accession, it isn't going to happen anytime soon. Essentially Cyprus should be one island ruled under its own flag as part of the EU. Turkey will not agree to that so Turkey isn't going to get into the EU.

 

There are numerous other reasons why they won't. This is why the talks are 'ongoing' and will keep going on, especially with the dogmatic Erdogan on the throne.

I just can not get my breath ! you have now become the forum expert on Turkey's invasion of Cyprus ,a subject that just a few posts ago you new nothing about and posted:loopy::loopy: at those who actually pointed this event out .

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2016 at 10:27 ----------

 

I cant find it at the moment host, but I was looking at soemthing the other week more recent and it indicated the vast majority coming form the EU are from 4 countries as well. By far the largest was Poland, then Ireland and maybe Hungary and Romania. India being the largest non EU. So agreeing with you broadly on that.

 

Im undecided what way to vote, but It's not hard to see the flaws in both sides arguments. In terms of migration they tend to mix up the different issues of asylum seeker and refugees, with the broader issue of migration. Good old Sheffield forum.

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2016 at 09:51 ----------

 

 

To join Turkey has to get agreement on 35 areas. I imagine Cyprus is one of them.

They have been negotiating since 1987.

They have only discussed 16 of hose areas.

They have achieved agreement on 1 area.

 

They arent going to be joining anytime soon, which is the OP is a complete misrepresentation of whats happening and idiotmongering. They want favours , money and some leverage (we want stuff from them), but they arent joining any time soon. If people bothered to understand what it takes to join then they wouldnt go off at a tangent and be banging on about Cyrpus. The bisas are just easier to get travel within schengen. the UK isnt in Schengen.

 

The alternative of not talking to Turkey for the relevant countries, is that millions of refugess will be let throygh and be on the borders of the actual EU countries, which will have a domino effect as they eventually end up on the borders of the counties they really want to go to. It makes sense to have a firewall by using Turkey to control them if we can.

This idiotmongering (double dutch) post tells us just why we should get out of this so called Union now .

Mind you I think that you are on a wind up going on about Cypus and bisas and schengen as well asthroygh, I have tried to decipher this language and the nearest I can get is the aforementioned double dutch A language that the Oxford dictionary describes as "one that no one understands".

Edited April 24, 2016 by samssong
An invasion by turkeys .

[tinfoilhat]

Boston and Spalding. Two rural towns that are set in the midst of huge crop-growing areas. Lots and lots of cheap labour needed so both are handy examples of immigration causing issues. What makes you think that A) there are huge problems? B) that things will change on Brexit? These farming cooperatives will still need hundreds of workers to crawl the fields and cut lettuce. I know they do, I've done the work myself.

 

So let's talk about London, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh instead? Because that is where the vast majority of migrants end up, the immigrants you don't hear about because they come with jobs, qualifications, money and skills that the country needs. I know numerous people that have moved to the UK from the Netherlands, in Sheffield the majority are University lecturers, professors, researchers and so on, I know them due to me being part of their world I suppose, although I know of a guy who is an architect as well. Many of the EU folk with whom I did a MSc or PhD that stayed in the UK have high-paying, high-responsibility jobs. A senior-consultant at KPMG (Manchester), a system analyst for E&Y, product manager for Red Bull marketing, financial analyst at HSBC... All based in London.

 

 

 

NATO.

 

 

 

!

 

Pre say, 2004, those fields in rural Lincolnshire needed harvesting. Did they all whither in the fields? No they did not. Trying to compare London with these sorts of places does you no favours at all - London has always had high amounts of immigrants (although I'd argue it's getting higher), it's big its cosmopolitan, foreigners are nothing new.

 

Have you been to Boston? The gene pool could have generously been described as shallow. If a coach load from Bradford had turned up it would have caused ripples. Now 1 in 10 are Eastern European. That's big jump. If the same thing happened in sleepy killamarsh, with its similar make up, the locals wouldnt like it (I've been here 15 years and still viewed with suspicion ;)) Call them short sighted, bigoted or inbred but in their eyes the world has been turned upside down and they've had very little say in the matter. Their town feels foreign to them.

 

I know why the immigrants are there, and most I'm sure are decent law abiding folk. You could argue that if the locals did the hard jobs the immigrants are doing we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't be wrong.

 

NATO - indeed, made up of quite a few European countries. Which makes the whole EU army a waste of time and money then?

[tzijlstra]

I just can not get my breath ! you have now become the forum expert on Turkey's invasion of Cyprus ,a subject that just a few posts ago you new nothing about and posted:loopy::loopy: at those who actually pointed this event out .

I hate to correct you, no I don't... I don't claim to be an expert on Cyprus, I have however more than a passing interest in the EU and the accession of Turkey happens to be one of the biggest topics for the EU. I also never said anything that inferred I did not know about Cyprus, it is you and the OP who started that line of thought and it is pretty disingenuous at the least. But the following part of your post suggests it goes beyond disingenuity and is in fact to do with being dim and using that dimness as an argument against the EU.

 

This idiotmongering (double dutch) post tells us just why we should get out of this so called Union now .

Mind you I think that you are on a wind up going on about Cypus and bisas and schengen as well asthroygh, I have tried to decipher this language and the nearest I can get is the aforementioned double dutch A language that the Oxford dictionary describes as "one that no one understands".

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2016 at 13:49 ----------

 

Pre say, 2004, those fields in rural Lincolnshire needed harvesting. Did they all whither in the fields? No they did not. Trying to compare London with these sorts of places does you no favours at all - London has always had high amounts of immigrants (although I'd argue it's getting higher), it's big its cosmopolitan, foreigners are nothing new.

 

Have you been to Boston? The gene pool could have generously been described as shallow. If a coach load from Bradford had turned up it would have caused ripples. Now 1 in 10 are Eastern European. That's big jump. If the same thing happened in sleepy killamarsh, with its similar make up, the locals wouldnt like it (I've been here 15 years and still viewed with suspicion ;)) Call them short sighted, bigoted or inbred but in their eyes the world has been turned upside down and they've had very little say in the matter. Their town feels foreign to them.

 

I know why the immigrants are there, and most I'm sure are decent law abiding folk. You could argue that if the locals did the hard jobs the immigrants are doing we wouldn't be having this conversation. You wouldn't be wrong.

 

NATO - indeed, made up of quite a few European countries. Which makes the whole EU army a waste of time and money then?

 

I haven't been to Boston, I grew up in a rural area where every new immigrant was considered an unwelcome visitor, whether they were from the village 5 km down the road or (at the time) Iraqi refugees. I know what those communities are like and I have no time for them and their bigotry. I couldn't wait to leave the town I grew up in.

 

But talking about immigration just leads to unpleasant truths about Brexit, immigration won't magically fall, it is filling a demand, the only reason immigration will fall due to Brexit is because the economy crashes and there are no more jobs. 'Controlling our borders' is a fallacy in the thought process of many, the UK already controls its borders.

 

With regards to the EU army - it doesn't exist. There are bilateral collaborations between nations, the English and French, the Germans and Dutch, the Germans and Poles and so on. There is however a school of thought that if there was an EU army it would take a lot of the redundancy that currently exists out of the military (which already is the reason that countries work together), so the Dutch sold all their tanks because the Germans provide that capability whilst the Dutch set up a mobile air-infantry unit to provide that capability.

 

It makes a lot of sense for Eurozone countries in particular to further that sort of collaboration, it saves money and makes the army as a whole far better equipped to deal with modern threats.

[Anna B]

Boston and Spalding. Two rural towns that are set in the midst of huge crop-growing areas. Lots and lots of cheap labour needed so both are handy examples of immigration causing issues. What makes you think that A) there are huge problems? B) that things will change on Brexit? These farming cooperatives will still need hundreds of workers to crawl the fields and cut lettuce. I know they do, I've done the work myself.

 

So let's talk about London, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh instead? Because that is where the vast majority of migrants end up, the immigrants you don't hear about because they come with jobs, qualifications, money and skills that the country needs. I know numerous people that have moved to the UK from the Netherlands, in Sheffield the majority are University lecturers, professors, researchers and so on, I know them due to me being part of their world I suppose, although I know of a guy who is an architect as well. Many of the EU folk with whom I did a MSc or PhD that stayed in the UK have high-paying, high-responsibility jobs. A senior-consultant at KPMG (Manchester), a system analyst for E&Y, product manager for Red Bull marketing, financial analyst at HSBC... All based in London.

 

 

_______________________________________________________________________-

 

 

 

With respect, I know someone who works in North Sheffield dealing with benefit issues, and the majority of his clients are out of work immigrants and their families. There are an awful lot of them.

 

While there might be some immigrants who have high-responsibility jobs, (good for them,) many more are unemployed or working in the black economy. One of the points of Brexit, surely, is that we will be more able to decide who we allow in, and presumably they will be people who have a good chance of gaining suitable employment, or who will have sorted employment before they get here. Although why there aren't British people who can fill these roles continues to baffle me.

Edited April 24, 2016 by nikki-red
fixed quote tags

[samssong]

I hate to correct you, no I don't... I don't claim to be an expert on Cyprus, I have however more than a passing interest in the EU and the accession of Turkey happens to be one of the biggest topics for the EU. I also never said anything that inferred I did not know about Cyprus, it is you and the OP who started that line of thought and it is pretty disingenuous at the least. But the following part of your post suggests it goes beyond disingenuity and is in fact to do with being dim and using that dimness as an argument against the EU.

 

 

---------- Post added 24-04-2016 at 13:49 ----------

 

 

I haven't been to Boston, I grew up in a rural area where every new immigrant was considered an unwelcome visitor, whether they were from the village 5 km down the road or (at the time) Iraqi refugees. I know what those communities are like and I have no time for them and their bigotry. I couldn't wait to leave the town I grew up in.

 

But talking about immigration just leads to unpleasant truths about Brexit, immigration won't magically fall, it is filling a demand, the only reason immigration will fall due to Brexit is because the economy crashes and there are no more jobs. 'Controlling our borders' is a fallacy in the thought process of many, the UK already controls its borders.

 

With regards to the EU army - it doesn't exist. There are bilateral collaborations between nations, the English and French, the Germans and Dutch, the Germans and Poles and so on. There is however a school of thought that if there was an EU army it would take a lot of the redundancy that currently exists out of the military (which already is the reason that countries work together), so the Dutch sold all their tanks because the Germans provide that capability whilst the Dutch set up a mobile air-infantry unit to provide that capability.

 

It makes a lot of sense for Eurozone countries in particular to further that sort of collaboration, it saves money and makes the army as a whole far better equipped to deal with modern threats.

The idiotmongering was nothing whatsoever to do with you!!! and I would further add that due to your educational history of which you keep reminding us then your little attempts at lording it over mere mortals make you sound silly:hihi: