Cosmogenesis .

[unbeliever]

The event that preceded the formation of stars and galaxies.

 

 

Matter and gravity.

 

 

How does gravity stop light and what matter is there supposed to be between the rest of the universe and our part in your universe?

 

 

Its infinite.

 

Says who?

 

What's driving expansion now and what makes you think it couldn't drive expatiation in parts of an infinite universe.

 

 

What has prevented the gravitational collapse of the entire system? What's holding them apart?

 

Momentum from the original expansion plus probably dark energy.

What's holding them apart in your universe?

 

 

An eternal universe would be in thermal equilibrium.

This is an unavoidable consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.

It has been understood for over 150 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_paradox

You only have to learn a little bit of 19th century physics to understand this.

Quantum mechanics and general relativity are irrelevant.

 

Just say it. "I reject the second law of thermodynamics".

Edited May 13, 2016 by unbeliever

[sutty27]

How does gravity stop light and what matter is there supposed to be between the rest of the universe and our part in your universe?

 

Light can't escape the gravitational pull of black holes so gravity can clearly affect light.

In an infinite universe its not unreasonable to think there would be matter other than the matter in our visible part of it.

 

Momentum from the original expansion plus probably dark energy.

What's holding them apart in your universe?

 

What caused the original expansion and what is dark energy other than an unproven assumption?

What makes you think they are being held apart?

[unbeliever]

Light can't escape the gravitational pull of black holes so gravity can clearly affect light.

 

Nothing short of a black hole can actually stop light. Anything less would just change the wavelength.

 

In an infinite universe its not unreasonable to think there would be matter other than the matter in our visible part of it.

 

 

In an eternal universe, why hasn't this matter coalesced into objects such as stars, planets etc. It's had infinite time to do so. Having done so, even if it's not luminous for some reason, how is it going to block light.

 

What makes you think they are being held apart?

 

They must be being held apart, or given that they have had infinite time to do so in your universe they would have collapsed together. This is quite obvious.

 

Over here in the actual universe dark energy has been shown to exist though observations of type 1a supernovae. The exact nature of it has yet to be determined.

What's preventing the gravitational collapse of your universe?

 

 

An eternal universe would be in thermal equilibrium.

This is an unavoidable consequence of the second law of thermodynamics.

It has been understood for over 150 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_paradox

You only have to learn a little bit of 19th century physics to understand this.

Quantum mechanics and general relativity are irrelevant.

 

Just say it. "I reject the second law of thermodynamics".

[sutty27]

Nothing short of a black hole can actually stop light. Anything less would just change the wavelength.

 

Light can be absorbed, reflected, or refracted and gravity attracts it.

 

In an eternal universe, why hasn't this matter coalesced into objects such as stars, planets etc. It's had infinite time to do so. Having done so, even if it's not luminous for some reason, how is it going to block light.

What makes you think that it hasn't? Stars don't last for ever,

Matter as gravity, and will absorb, reflect or refract light.

 

 

They must be being held apart, or given that they have had infinite time to do so in your universe they would have collapsed together. This is quite obvious.

There may well be something keeping them apart it might be distance, or that imaginary dark energy and dark matter you keep talking about. But I would guess that most would simply collapse back into their supper massive blackholes to be recycled.

 

 

 

Over here in the actual universe dark energy has been shown to exist though observations of type 1a supernovae. The exact nature of it has yet to be determined.

No its assumed to exist.

 

What's preventing the gravitational collapse of your universe?

If dark matter exists here which is only an assumption it would exist through out an infinate universe.

Parts of an infinite universe could be collapsing whilst other parts are expanding.

 

---------- Post added 14-05-2016 at 07:29 ----------

 

 

Momentum from the original expansion plus probably dark energy.

What's holding them apart in your universe?

 

 

Not sure about momentum, its not claimed that the galaxies are moving away from us, it's claimed that the space between us is expanding. Momentum would mean they are travelling through space and apparently they are not.

[unbeliever]

Light can be absorbed, reflected, or refracted and gravity attracts it.

 

This is roughly true. So the part of your universe we're in is transparent, but the part of the universe around it is opaque. Of course it wouldn't be opaque if it coalesced under gravity into compact objects, as our part has, but I suppose the as yet unspecified effect which keeps things from collapsing is somehow keeping that from happening for eternity?

 

What makes you think that it hasn't? Stars don't last for ever,

Matter as gravity, and will absorb, reflect or refract light.

 

 

There may well be something keeping them apart it might be distance, or that imaginary dark energy and dark matter you keep talking about. But I would guess that most would simply collapse back into their supper massive blackholes to be recycled.

 

 

Gravity has infinite reach, so distance doesn't help if you're dealing with infinite time.

You're now appealing to the dark energy which is an experimentally verified part of the actual universe to keep the suttyverse from collapsing. That being the case, how about you stop pretending it's made up

 

No its assumed to exist.

 

If dark matter exists here which is only an assumption it would exist through out an infinate universe.

Parts of an infinite universe could be collapsing whilst other parts are expanding.

 

Yes like that. It would also help if you would learn the difference between dark matter and dark energy.

 

 

I'm going to have another go at explaining thermal equilibrium.

 

Put a lit match in a foot cubed heat-tight box. What happens inside the box?

The match burns out warming the whole box insides slightly and then nothing ever happens again.

Now say it's an infinite box with lit matches at one foot intervals. Is anything really different? No, exactly the same effect.

 

The carbon from the match in both cases has been converted to carbon-dioxide via combination with the oxygen in the air in the box, releasing heat and increasing entropy. In the suttyverse there would be a mechanism analogous to black holes which will collect up the extra heat distributed around the box, bringing the temperature back to where it was. This process would separate the carbon and oxygen releasing the oxygen back into the box and then use the carbon to reconstruct the match. Since your instincts are so important to you in such matters, does that sound like an actual thing to you?

Edited May 14, 2016 by unbeliever

[sutty27]

This is roughly true. So the part of your universe we're in is transparent, but the part of the universe around it is opaque. Of course it wouldn't be opaque if it coalesced under gravity into compact objects, as our part has, but I suppose the as yet unspecified effect which keeps things from collapsing is somehow keeping that from happening for eternity?

 

We haven't been looking for an eternity so have no idea what's been going on for an eternity.

 

 

Gravity has infinite reach, so distance doesn't help if you're dealing with infinite time.

 

Its very unlikely that there are objects in an infinite universe that have existed in their current form for all of time.

 

 

 

You're now appealing to the dark energy which is an experimentally verified part of the actual universe to keep the suttyverse from collapsing. That being the case, how about you stop pretending it's made up

 

What ever exists in this part of the universe is very likely to exist throughout the universe, why would you think it wouldn't? I agree that dark matter is made up to make things work, but if it can be made up to make one idea work it can be made up to make another idea work. Who knows it might actually exist.

 

 

I'm going to have another go at explaining thermal equilibrium.

 

Put a lit match in a foot cubed heat-tight box. What happens inside the box?

The match burns out warming the whole box insides slightly and then nothing ever happens again.

Now say it's an infinite box with lit matches at one foot intervals. Is anything really different? No, exactly the same effect.

 

But if you keep replacing the dead matches with new lit matches it will never cool down.

 

 

The carbon from the match in both cases has been converted to carbon-dioxide via combination with the oxygen in the air in the box, releasing heat and increasing entropy.

Nothing is lost though, all that is required is mechanism to convert it all back into something that can make a new match.

 

 

 

In the suttyverse there would be a mechanism analogous to black holes which will collect up the extra heat distributed around the box, bringing the temperature back to where it was. This process would separate the carbon and oxygen releasing the oxygen back into the box and then use the carbon to reconstruct the match. Since your instincts are so important to you in such matters, does that sound like an actual thing to you?

 

An expanding universe would spread everything out, but if the universe started to contract everything would move back together, all the dead matter and energy would coalesce.

 

Or black holes spread out through the infinite universe would slowly attract it and recycle it ready for the next expulsion event.

Edited May 14, 2016 by sutty27

[unbeliever]

But if you keep replacing the dead matches with new lit matches it will never cool down.

 

 

This requires you to feed in extra matches from outside, also you'll have to remove the carbon dioxide and ash, and replace the oxygen.

When you replenish the box in this way, from outside, you increase the entropy of the outside by more than you decrease it inside.

In a whole universe, there's no outside to help you.

 

Perhaps in the suttyverse black holes are entropy reducing objects where as in the real universe they obey the second law of thermodynamics. Like absolutely everything has to.

 

Would you please have a look at this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

Then come back and tell me how the suttyverse black holes get around it.

Edited May 14, 2016 by unbeliever

[sutty27]

The void is both spaceless and timeless. But that doesn't mean it doesn't fluctuate.

In this model the quantum fluctuation initially formed a bubble of highly curved space-time with either zero, or very close to zero net-energy. From then on it expanded eventually growing into the universe we see today.

 

 

Lets revisit this idea.

 

If the void is spaceless and timeless then it doesn't exist, out of this non existence you say the entire universe emerged.

Non existence is an unproven assumption with no evidence to support it.

The physics and maths breaks down before you get to the singularity, so lets start with the universe being the size of a golf ball.

 

If the entire universe was squished into a mass the size of a gold ball it would have unimaginable gravity but it still managed to expand, what overcame gravity and caused the expansion?

 

So lets remove the unproven assumption that it started with the void and start the same process in a universe that already existed. If all that mass can fit into a very small space in your model it can fit into the same space in my model. If it can expand in your model it can expand in my model.

 

In your model does it continue to expand for all eternity or does it all vanish back into the void?

 

You claimed that gravity would eventually pull everything back together in an infinite universe with no beginning, why doesn't that happen in your model or does the matter, energy, vacuum and gravity vanish back into the void?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This requires you to feed in extra matches from outside, also you'll have to remove the carbon dioxide and ash, and replace the oxygen.

No it doesn't, it requires a mechanism that can reverse the process of burning a match. Edited May 14, 2016 by sutty27

[unbeliever]

Lets revisit this idea.

 

If the void is spaceless and timeless then it doesn't exist, out of this non existence you say the entire universe emerged.

Non existence is an unproven assumption with no evidence to support it.

The physics and maths breaks down before you get to the singularity, so lets start with the universe being the size of a golf ball.

 

If the entire universe was squished into a mass the size of a gold ball it would have unimaginable gravity but it still managed to expand, what overcame gravity and caused the expansion?

 

So lets remove the unproven assumption that it started with the void and start the same process in a universe that already existed. If all that mass can fit into a very small space in your model it can fit into the same space in my model. If it can expand in your model it can expand in my model.

 

In your model does it continue to expand for all eternity or does it all vanish back into the void?

 

You claimed that gravity would eventually pull everything back together in an infinite universe with no beginning, why doesn't that happen in your model or does the matter, energy, vacuum and gravity vanish back into the void?

 

 

 

 

 

 

If this is possible then its possible in a universe that already exists,

 

---------- Post added 14-05-2016 at 09:33 ----------

 

No it doesn't, it requires a mechanism that can reverse the process of burning a match.

 

The increase in entropy is essentially the motivation for the process to occur. Processes which do not increase entropy simply do not take place.

 

Would you please have a look at this wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

Then come back and tell me how the suttyverse black holes get around it.

[JFKvsNixon]

It seams to me that the suttyverse is only governed by one rule - suttylogic. Or would it be more accurate to describe it as MrSmithlogic?