Cosmogenesis .

[unbeliever]

And every thing that happens is fully contained in the system with nothing lost and nothing becoming unusable. You are looking at the universe as multiple systems when in fact it is one system. Unlike your fridge it can't lose anything to its surroundings.

 

I'm doing no such thing. My argument is based around the universe being a single system. The total entropy of a closed system always increases. The universe is a closed system.

 

Let's say in my previous example that the earth-moon system were sealed off from the rest of the universe. The total entropy of the system resulting from the fall of the moon to the earth has clearly gone up.

Once the moon-earth collapse has been completed and the moearth has cooled to the same temperature as its surroundings, there is no means left to extract work from the system. The moearth and its surroundings are at the same temperature (that temperature being a bit higher than the space around the moon-earth system was before) and nothing is left to fall from anywhere to anywhere.

It will just sit there uselessly forever.

Extrapolate that out a 10^100 earth moon systems, the result is the same. Throw in some stars. No difference. Add some black holes. No difference. Add the monkeys, some blancmange and some whipped cream. No difference.

Total entropy of a closed system always increases.

[sutty27]

I'm doing no such thing. My argument is based around the universe being a single system. The total entropy of a closed system always increases.

 

No it doesn't it can say the same.

 

---------- Post added 16-05-2016 at 11:55 ----------

 

Let's say in my previous example that the earth-moon system were sealed off from the rest of the universe. The total entropy of the system resulting from the fall of the moon to the earth has clearly gone up.

Once the moon-earth collapse has been completed and the moearth has cooled to the same temperature as its surroundings, there is no means left to extract work from the system. The moearth and its surroundings are at the same temperature (that temperature being a bit higher than the space around the moon-earth system was before) and nothing is left to fall from anywhere to anywhere.

It will just sit there uselessly forever.

Extrapolate that out a 10^100 earth moon systems, the result is the same. Throw in some stars. No difference. Add some black holes. No difference. Add the monkeys, some blancmange and some whipped cream. No difference.

Total entropy of a closed system always increases.

 

The universe doesn't have any surroundings so it can't cool down to the same temperature as its surroundings.

[unbeliever]

No it doesn't it can say the same.

 

 

That's not theoretically forbidden, but it doesn't actually happen.

Even if it did happen, it would have to happen for every process as there can be no balancing processes which reduce the total entropy of the universe.

Look at the sky, look in your house, look at your cat. You will see a myriad of processes all increasing the total entropy of the universe.

 

 

 

---------- Post added 16-05-2016 at 11:55 ----------

 

 

The universe doesn't have any surroundings so it can't cool down to the same temperature as its surroundings.

 

You're missing the point completely.

 

I wasn't talking about the earth and moon being a closed system. I was referring to the moon + the earth + the space around them.

The moon-earth system in this example loses heat into space. Eventually the moearth reaches a lower entropy state than the moon-earth previously held, but at the expense of a huge increase in the entropy of the space around them.

 

Now extrapolate out to the whole universe and all you'll see is processes like this being repeated over and over again. Anything which actually happens increases the total entropy of the universe and things only actually do happen because the universe is currently in a low state of entropy compared to the maximum entropy of which it is capable.

[sutty27]

That's not theoretically forbidden, but it doesn't actually happen.

Even if it did happen, it would have to happen for every process as there can be no balancing processes which reduce the total entropy of the universe.

Look at the sky, look in your house, look at your cat. You will see a myriad of processes all increasing the total entropy of the universe.

 

 

 

---------- Post added 16-05-2016 at 11:55 ----------

 

 

 

 

You're missing the point completely.

 

I wasn't talking about the earth and moon being a closed system. I was referring to the moon + the earth + the space around them.

The moon-earth system in this example loses heat into space. Eventually the moearth reaches a lower entropy state than the moon-earth previously held, but at the expense of a huge increase in the entropy of the space around them.

 

Now extrapolate out to the whole universe and all you'll see is processes like this being repeated over and over again. Anything which actually happens increases the total entropy of the universe and things only actually do happen because the universe is currently in a low state of entropy compared to the maximum entropy of which it is capable.

 

The earth and the moon aren't an closed system though, they are part of a closed system that as no surrounding, everything that happens within it stays within it, nothing can be lost because there is no where else for it to go.

Whilst there are processes in it that increase local entropy there are counter processes that decrease local entropy leaving total entropy unchanged. An infinite universe with no beginning does not break the laws of laws of thermodynamics, but a universe with a beginning does break them.

[unbeliever]

Whilst there are processes in it that increase local entropy there are counter processes that decrease local entropy leaving total entropy unchanged. An infinite universe with no beginning does not break the laws of laws of thermodynamics, but a universe with a beginning does break them.

 

Absolute rubbish.

Ask anybody who's studied it. Read any book on the subject.

Better still just read the wikipedia pages I've posted thoroughly.

 

The total entropy of the universe is always increasing.

[sutty27]

Absolute rubbish.

Ask anybody who's studied it. Read any book on the subject.

Better still just read the wikipedia pages I've posted thoroughly.

 

The total entropy of the universe is always increasing.

 

The total entropy of your finite universe with a beginning will always increase but it won't in the real universe which is infinite and as no beginning.

 

Sheeple read books and then blindly believe what they say, hence the reason billions of people think God created the universe.

Edited May 16, 2016 by sutty27

[unbeliever]

The total entropy of your finite universe with a beginning will always increase but it won't in the real universe which is infinite and as no beginning.

 

Sheeple read books and then blindly believe what they say, hence the reason billions of people think God created the universe.

 

What the #@$£!

 

It's not about reading books. The second law of thermodynamics has been experimentally verified and is based on sound logic.

You on the other hand have started from a nonsense conclusion and are just saying whatever you can think of to justify it.

 

All real processes increase the total entropy of the universe. If no processes which increase total entropy are permitted in the suttyverse than absolutely nothing will happen, ever. So it's inert anyway.

The only way that you can get a process to occur which decreases total entropy is to reverse the arrow of time.

Tell you what. Why don't you just have the arrow of time running in different directions in different parts of the suttyverse? There's so much bovine excrement in the suttyverse already, I doubt anybody would notice.

Edited May 18, 2016 by unbeliever

[DnAuK]

Interesting video on this topic I saw today:

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/big-bang-not-beginning-universe-132830720.html

 

Apologies if it's already been covered. I have been quite busy and not had time to go back through 20 pages.

[sutty27]

Interesting video on this topic I saw today:

 

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/big-bang-not-beginning-universe-132830720.html

 

Apologies if it's already been covered. I have been quite busy and not had time to go back through 20 pages.

 

He is right when he say the big bang isn't the start of the universe it's the end of our understanding.

 

---------- Post added 19-05-2016 at 06:54 ----------

 

What the #@$£!

 

The second law of thermodynamics has been experimentally verified and is based on sound logic.

Not in dispute, and it states that in any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.

 

 

All real processes increase the total entropy of the universe.

No they don't.

 

 

The only way that you can get a process to occur which decreases total entropy is to reverse the arrow of time.

Total entropy of the universe is constant, but there are local changes that go in either direction.

 

 

Tell you what. Why don't you just have the arrow of time running in different directions in different parts of the suttyverse?

Not my suggestion but how do you know that it doesn't.

[unbeliever]

Not in dispute, and it states that in any cyclic process the entropy will either increase or remain the same.

 

 

So your idea is that every process that appears to increase total entropy, is in fact entropy neutral as there is a corresponding decrease in entropy elsewhere which is actually part of the process but is somehow unobserved.

How would this happen in practise with, for example, the normal operation of a star?

 

No they don't.

 

All the experiments conducted in this area say that they do.