Cosmogenesis .

[sutty27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

 

What you have to appreciate is that the compression force inside a black hole is literally infinite.

You can invent matter particles all you want, there will be a finite pressure holding them apart. Quantum degeneracy pressure it's called. The strength of this pressure is finite. The strength of the gravitational field of a black hole is infinite.

 

You do know that a singularity is just a mathematical prediction, its like God, can't be seen, touched or proved to exist but apparently it must exist because the universe exists and we are unwilling to accept it always existed.

Edited May 19, 2016 by sutty27

[unbeliever]

You do know that a singularity is just a mathematical prediction, its like God, can't be seen, touched or proved to exist but must exist because the universe exists.

 

How is it "like god". We're talking about general relativity.

You come with a theory and a mathematical framework describing it.

The theory makes predictions inconsistent with existing theory (Newton) where existing theory has problems, but consistent where it does not.

You propose experiments to test your predictions, to show that they are correct where existing theory was not. e.g. light being bent, time dilation in gravitational fields, mass/energy equivalence.

Black holes were predicted long before astronomers has the means to definitively identify them in space. All the predictions checked out when the technology became available.

That's why we have confidence in general relativity.

 

What have you offered to support your alternative ideas?

What do you propose happens to matter when it experiences infinite compression forces?

[sutty27]

How is it "like god". We're talking about general relativity.

You come with a theory and a mathematical framework describing it.

The theory makes predictions inconsistent with existing theory (Newton) where existing theory has problems, but consistent where it does not.

You propose experiments to test your predictions, to show that they are correct where existing theory was not. e.g. light being bent, time dilation in gravitational fields, mass/energy equivalence.

Black holes were predicted long before astronomers has the means to definitively identify them in space. All the predictions checked out when the technology became available.

That's why we have confidence in general relativity.

 

What have you offered to support your alternative ideas?

What do you propose happens to matter when it experiences infinite compression forces?

 

I don't propose it experiences infinite compression forces, I propose that compression forces revert matter back into the basic building blocks of matter before internal forces cause a violent expansion.

[unbeliever]

I don't propose it experiences infinite compression forces, I propose that compression forces revert matter back into the basic building blocks of matter before internal forces cause a violent expansion.

 

The force becomes infinite as the escape velocity reaches the speed of light.

If the force involved is not infinite then light can escape. So it's no longer a black hole.

Does the suttyverse contain black holes or not?

 

Why have these violent expansions not been observed?

[sutty27]

The force becomes infinite as the escape velocity reaches the speed of light.

If the force involved is not infinite then light can escape. So it's no longer a black hole.

Does the suttyverse contain black holes or not?

 

Why have these violent expansions not been observed?

 

 

 

Gravity is proportional to the mass of an object so how can something with finite mass have infinite gravity?

 

For the universe to exist in your model both sides of the equation have to balance out, gravity on one side = everything else on the other, there are billions of galaxies each apparently with a black hole and each black hole you say has infinite gravity, obviously that's all still equals infinite gravity, but if there is infinite gravity on one side there would have to be infinite everything else on the other side of the equation otherwise it wouldn't balance and the universe couldn't exist.

 

A black hole with infinite gravity would have infinite pull on all the matter in the universe, why isn't everything being pulled into black holes and why is all this gravity not preventing the expansion of the universe?

 

According to modern general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang, was a singularity, now you say there are billions of them in the universe, all presumably capable of renewing the universe.

 

Because we didn't exist the last time it happened billions of years ago.

Edited May 19, 2016 by sutty27

[apelike]

What you have to appreciate is that the compression force inside a black hole is literally infinite.

You can invent matter particles all you want, there will be a finite pressure holding them apart. Quantum degeneracy pressure it's called. The strength of this pressure is finite. The strength of the gravitational field of a black hole is infinite.

 

What is basically means that inside a black hole all particles are compressed into a single particle. Not a composite particle like a proton with its 3 quarks, but a single combined particle. This must happen because an infinite force cannot be resisted.

 

Can you have something that is infinite in a universe that is not infinite?

[unbeliever]

Can you have something that is infinite in a universe that is not infinite?

 

 

You can't have something which is spatially infinite in a finite universe.

[apelike]

You can't have something which is spatially infinite in a finite universe.

 

Is what happens in a black hole infinite or spatially infinite?

[sutty27]

Is what happens in a black hole infinite or spatially infinite?

 

It wouldn't be spatially infinite.

 

For the universe to pop into existence from nothing the sum total of matter in the universe has to cancel out sum total of negative gravitational energy. Now if you say the billions of objects in the universe all have infinite gravitational energy there would have to be an infinite amount of mass to cancel it out. That means either they don't have infinite gravity or the universe didn't pop in to existence from nothing.

 

I would go with both, they don't have infinite gravity and the universe didn't pop into existence from nothing.

[unbeliever]

Gravity is proportional to the mass of an object so how can something with finite mass have infinite gravity?

 

For the universe to exist in your model both sides of the equation have to balance out, gravity on one side = everything else on the other, there are billions of galaxies each apparently with a black hole and each black hole you say has infinite gravity, obviously that's all still equals infinite gravity, but if there is infinite gravity on one side there would have to be infinite everything else on the other side of the equation otherwise it wouldn't balance and the universe couldn't exist.

 

A black hole with infinite gravity would have infinite pull on all the matter in the universe, why isn't everything being pulled into black holes and why is all this gravity not preventing the expansion of the universe?

 

According to modern general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the Big Bang, was a singularity, now you say there are billions of them in the universe, all presumably capable of renewing the universe.

 

Because we didn't exist the last time it happened billions of years ago.

 

 

Great, so now I'm supposed to teach you about general relativity.

 

I'll try to keep it reasonably simple:

In the Newtonian gravity model, everything happens instantaneously, and light is unaffected.

In GR (which has been extensively experimentally tested), the effect of gravity travels at the speed of light and anything which carries energy is affected, including light and even gravitational fields themselves. This complicates things somewhat.

The stronger the gravity of an object is, the faster you have to travel to escape it. This is referred to as the escape velocity. When the escape velocity is greater than or equal to the speed of light, you'd have to travel at or faster than the speed of light to escape. If you have rest mass (all matter) then in order to achieve the speed of light you have to have infinite energy.

To complicate things further as you add energy to a massive particle to accelerate it in an effort to achieve escape velocity, you increase its total energy and thereby increase the effect of gravity upon it.

So in GR, infinities are reasonably easy to come by where as they are rather hard to come by in Newtonian gravity.

 

 

Not all singularities are equal. There was a perfect energy balance at the big bang which is not re-created in black holes.

The first "inflation" phase of expansion cannot occur in a singularity with total energy significantly different from zero.

GR does allow for singularities other than black holes. Your mistake is the baseless assertion that all singularities are the same.

Edited May 20, 2016 by unbeliever