Deal over Turkey joining the EU?

[tzijlstra]

Go find someone then that will tell us how they voted for Brexit because they wanted £350m a week additional spend on the NHS. Let them tell us how they normally vote Tory and will never do so again if it doesn't happen. It's going to be a long wait. It is hilarious that those on the liberal-left simply cannot understand why other people don't think like them and, even when they are told, they don't like the answer and feel the need to start making stuff up to provide themselves with (false) hope that people will change their minds.

 

I am sorry but people aren't about to come to their senses after being duped by unscrupulous politicians. The fact is that the vast majority people are anti-mass immigration because their experience of it has been negative - politicians have responded to public opinion not the other way round. Free movement is no acceptable and the government had best realise that as they start negotiating free trade deals with the EU, Turkey and others.

 

I know at least three, all over 65s, guess who vote most? over 65s, guess who need the NHS most? over 65s.

[Zamo]

Go to BBC comments section on any EU related (and sometimes ANY topic) or if you really want weapons grade idiocy try Yahoo comments. There are loads who think the drawbridge is coming up for good we're sending the immigrants back and the NHS will be saved to the tune of £350million. They are legion.

 

Only a handful of morons would think the NHS is going to get £350m a week additional funding. You got a couple of links to posts by these morons?

 

I know at least three, all over 65s, guess who vote most? over 65s, guess who need the NHS most? over 65s.

 

Get them on here so we can ask them some questions then. I don't believe there's an army of Tory voters out there that voted for Brexit just because of the £350m to the NHS posters and who will cease being Tories, or Brexit supporters, should the extra £350m per week fail to materialise. You carry on deluding yourself.

[altus]

Only a handful of morons would think the NHS is going to get £350m a week additional funding. You got a couple of links to posts by these morons?

 

Get them on here so we can ask them some questions then. I don't believe there's an army of Tory voters out there that voted for Brexit just because of the £350m to the NHS posters and who will cease being Tories, or Brexit supporters, should the extra £350m per week fail to materialise. You carry on deluding yourself.

If the brexit campaign didn't think the £350m for the NHS claim would influence people why did they feature it so prominently (on the side of their bus, etc.) in their campaigning?

 

Tory voters who voted brexit based on the NHS claim who are no longer going to vote Tory because it was a lie, as opposed to continue to vote for them for the same reasons they were Tory voters in the first place is going to be a pretty narrow group of people.

 

The issue is did some people vote brexit because of a lie, not can you devise a subset of those people who would now no longer vote Tory because of it. The answer to that is undoubtedly yes - and not the tiny number you like to claim.

[tzijlstra]

Only a handful of morons would think the NHS is going to get £350m a week additional funding. You got a couple of links to posts by these morons?

 

 

 

Get them on here so we can ask them some questions then. I don't believe there's an army of Tory voters out there that voted for Brexit just because of the £350m to the NHS posters and who will cease being Tories, or Brexit supporters, should the extra £350m per week fail to materialise. You carry on deluding yourself.

They were Labour voters. Or indeed more recently UKIP. They believe in the fallacy that immigrants are ruining the NHS, it is a very cheap exploit that the Leave campaign used, on purpose. You denying it is a bit like you denying you are xenophobic and a mass-generalist.

[LeMaquis]

Only a handful of morons would think the NHS is going to get £350m a week additional funding. You got a couple of links to posts by these morons?

 

I have from 9th June on this site on page 214 of the thread entitled "EU Referendum - How will you vote?"

 

Discussing Dr Sarah Wollaston MP's comments about the Brexiteers' arguments that more money would be spent on the NHS ez8004 wrote;

 

"Wollaston's change of mind seems to have a few of you throwing your toys out of the pram. She has explicitly stated that the increase funding to the NHS on a Leave vote is untrue."

 

And someone replied;

 

Wollaston has decided to abandon the fight for democracy and sovereignty because she thinks the Leave campaign have calculate future spending on the NHS wrongly?!?

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1405170&highlight=nhs&page=214

[Zamo]

If the brexit campaign didn't think the £350m for the NHS claim would influence people why did they feature it so prominently (on the side of their bus, etc.) in their campaigning?

 

It was put there to emphasis how much money we send to the EU and how it could be better spent. The notion than any sane person believed the entire EU contribution would be directed to the NHS and nothing else is laughable.

 

Tory voters who voted brexit based on the NHS claim who are no longer going to vote Tory because it was a lie, as opposed to continue to vote for them for the same reasons they were Tory voters in the first place is going to be a pretty narrow group of people.

 

The issue is did some people vote brexit because of a lie, not can you devise a subset of those people who would now no longer vote Tory because of it. The answer to that is undoubtedly yes - and not the tiny number you like to claim.

 

The claim that it was a lie to imply £350m a week extra will be spent on the NHS post Brexit have been repeatedly made over the last 4 months or so and those that put it on their bus have clarified the position and confirmed there will be no extra £350m. So everyone is obviously now aware of the situation are they not? We all know there may be some extra money for the NHs but it isn't going to be anything like £350m a week. So, in this knowledge, how has it damaged electoral prospects for the Tories? Well according to every poll taken since the vote for Brexit, the percentage of people who will vote Tory has gone up since the last election whilst those that will vote Labour is down.

 

You are clutching at straws in your hope that there millions of people were duped by the £350m claim, haven't yet realised they were duped and will eventually see the light and punish the Tories for their lies by note voting for them any more. You are kidding yourself.

 

I have from 9th June on this site on page 214 of the thread entitled "EU Referendum - How will you vote?"

 

Discussing Dr Sarah Wollaston MP's comments about the Brexiteers' arguments that more money would be spent on the NHS ez8004 wrote;

 

"Wollaston's change of mind seems to have a few of you throwing your toys out of the pram. She has explicitly stated that the increase funding to the NHS on a Leave vote is untrue."

 

And someone replied;

 

 

 

http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1405170&highlight=nhs&page=214

 

So Sarah Wollaston switched to Remain because she didn't believe the £350m Leave claim. She had never been 'conned' into supporting Leave by the claim and her Tory allegiance remains despite thinking the claim was disingenuous.

 

And Zamo extracted the urine out of the said MP for abandoning the principle of voting to leave the EU to regain sovereignty just because she thought the £350m claim was disingenuous.

 

So neither of the people you have quoted believed the £350m claim and neither have changed their political allegiances despite knowing the claim was somewhere between slightly disingenuous and an outright lie? Sorry LeMaquis but you wasted your Saturday afternoon. I'd suggest not wasting any more time on this and instead going down the pub this afternoon and talking to some real people... you might actually find out why people voted to Leave and what influenced their decision.

 

They were Labour voters. Or indeed more recently UKIP. They believe in the fallacy that immigrants are ruining the NHS, it is a very cheap exploit that the Leave campaign used, on purpose. You denying it is a bit like you denying you are xenophobic and a mass-generalist.

 

The £350m claim and immigrant impact on the NHS as different issues. Did they vote for Brexit because of the £350m claim or because they think the NHS is struggling due to population growth fuelled by immigration? You imply it was actually the later and I suspect their view on that will not have changed. What is 100% clear is that the £350m claim has cost the Tories nothing in terms of votes (they never voted for them in the first place), which is the point I was making. My thanks to all three of you for helping me to make the point.

 

What is clear from the recent exchanges is that Remainers cannot understand the motivations of those that voted for Brexit and as such cannot understand that a trade deal with a country like Turkey that allows free movement is a non-starter. People can try and dismiss this as xenophobia (as tzijlstra just did) but it doesn't stop it being the reality.

[LeMaquis]

And Zamo extracted the urine out of the said MP for abandoning the principle of voting to leave the EU to regain sovereignty just because she thought the £350m claim was disingenuous.

 

What Zamo did was say that anyone who believed the £350m claim was a moron and then look a bit desperate when an old post of his claiming that the £350m claim was true was dug up.

 

But if you admit to being a moron who am I to argue?

[andyofborg]

What is clear from the recent exchanges is that Remainers cannot understand the motivations of those that voted for Brexit

 

I think we do

 

and as such cannot understand that a trade deal with a country like Turkey that allows free movement is a non-starter. People can try and dismiss this as xenophobia (as tzijlstra just did) but it doesn't stop it being the reality.

 

as things stand now, if (and it's a big if) turkey eventually join the EU then there will be the free movement of turkish citizens across the eu. there may, as with the accession of the eastern european states, some initial limitations on them but eventually free movement will come.

 

i'm sure the turkish people are pleased with the change of heart of our egregious foreign secretary who after spending months campaigning for us to leave the eu because turkey wanted to join seems to have become biggest cheerleader for their joining.

 

in our post-exit dystopia, whatever deal we come to with the eu, may or may not include some degree of the acceptance of the freeish movement of people across our hallowed borders.

Edited October 2, 2016 by andyofborg

[Zamo]

What Zamo did was say that anyone who believed the £350m claim was a moron and then look a bit desperate when an old post of his claiming that the £350m claim was true was dug up.

 

But if you admit to being a moron who am I to argue?

 

I am afraid LeMaquis it is just another example of you seeing what you want to see!

 

The post of mine that you link to is a criticism of Wollaston's stated reason for changing her mind about leaving the EU. Nowhere do I say that she is wrong to challenge the idea that an extra £350m per week could be spent on the NHS. I am saying she is wrong to abandon a principle over the issue. It helps if you read the entire post instead of taking one bit of it.

 

Wollaston has decided to abandon the fight for democracy and sovereignty because she thinks the Leave campaign have calculate future spending on the NHS wrongly?!? It doesn't make sense and she looks like a plant... I don't think it is going to sway anyone.

 

I would strongly urge everyone to forget about the numbers (you can't believe what either side tells you) and to vote on principle. Should we continue to be a sovereign and democratic nation or should we subjugate to EU rule.

 

It is pretty clear that you have tried to take part of my post and use it out of context to make a cheap and false claim. You now look as disingenuous as the Leave campaigners you are complaining about. One rule for them and all that eh?

 

---------- Post added 02-10-2016 at 11:05 ----------

 

I think we do

 

 

 

as things stand now, if (and it's a big if) turkey eventually join the EU then there will be the free movement of turkish citizens across the eu. there may, as with the accession of the eastern european states, some initial limitations on them but eventually free movement will come.

 

i'm sure the turkish people are pleased with the change of heart of our egregious foreign secretary who after spending months campaigning for us to leave the eu because turkey wanted to join seems to have become biggest cheerleader for their joining.

 

in our post-exit dystopia, whatever deal we come to with the eu, may or may not include some degree of the acceptance of the freeish movement of people across our hallowed borders.

 

You say you do understand and then give a perfect example of how you don't understanding!

 

The argument for free movement has been lost. It is rejected by the vast majority of people who are not going to accept anything other than the government regaining full control over immigration policy so the British people can hold them to account for decisions and outcomes. Giving up some control to sweeten trade deals is not going to be tolerated... especial with an Islamic country like Turkey.

 

The idea that Brexiters will still have to suffer free movement in the long term, that we have been duped, is wishful thinking. It may be delayed by foolish politicians but it cannot be stopped. The strength of feeling on this subject is so strong that it trumps just about anything else. The more people are ignored the more they move towards the right and nationalism... and soon or later it will take power. It is a dangerous business to think that if you ignore people's complaints long enough they'll come to accept what is being done to them against their will. The history of our species tells us that is not how it works.

Edited October 2, 2016 by Zamo

[I1L2T3]

Brexit supporters still don't get it.

 

When Liam Fox and people with similar ideological positions talk about taking back sovereignty from the EU it is not to make us independent again, if is so they can sell that sovereignty to the highest corporate bidders, something the EU prevents.

 

From his speech the other day

 

"While the increased economic activity that globalisation has generated has been broadly welcomed by business, politicians have often worried about how the dissolving concepts of sovereignty will affect their ability to influence events, and many have worried about the effects on the world’s most vulnerable people"

 

The globalisation they want, and want the UK to become fully involved in, dissolves our sovereignty and hands power to internationally-operating corporates.

 

The improvements to the lives of people in vulnerable countries come at a cost to people in this country. The poor who voted for Brexit now become the direct competitors of those vulnerable people. That is not what they voted for. Essentially they voted to be protected more, not pitched into a battle for survival against the poor in other countries.

 

Zamo (and others) you have been sold a pup.