Deal over Turkey joining the EU?

[Zamo]

Brexit supporters still don't get it.

 

When Liam Fox and people with similar ideological positions talk about taking back sovereignty from the EU it is not to make us independent again, if is so they can sell that sovereignty to the highest corporate bidders, something the EU prevents.

 

From his speech the other day

 

"While the increased economic activity that globalisation has generated has been broadly welcomed by business, politicians have often worried about how the dissolving concepts of sovereignty will affect their ability to influence events, and many have worried about the effects on the world’s most vulnerable people"

 

The globalisation they want, and want the UK to become fully involved in, dissolves our sovereignty and hands power to internationally-operating corporates.

 

The improvements to the lives of people in vulnerable countries come at a cost to people in this country. The poor who voted for Brexit now become the direct competitors of those vulnerable people. That is not what they voted for. Essentially they voted to be protected more, not pitched into a battle for survival against the poor in other countries.

 

Zamo (and others) you have been sold a pup.

 

I thought we were talking about the free movement of people from Turkey? Competition is inevitable and I think it is pretty clear that the poor of this country would prefer to compete with the poor of Turkey long distance.

 

Of course, Brexit doesn't solve all our problems and nor does it protect us from global challenges... when did anyone say it did? Globalisation may result in global wealth being redistributed more fairly and obviously the losers are those in the wealthiest countries... especially the poor. But free movement offers us no more protection from this than controlled movement.

 

Uncontrolled mass immigration is causing real division that will only bring the worst out in our species. It has to stop and if the EU can't see that then we need to distance ourselves from the EU and the eventual consequences of their decision... and thankfully that is just what is happening.

[altus]

It was put there to emphasis how much money we send to the EU and how it could be better spent. The notion than any sane person believed the entire EU contribution would be directed to the NHS and nothing else is laughable.

 

The claim that it was a lie to imply £350m a week extra will be spent on the NHS post Brexit have been repeatedly made over the last 4 months or so and those that put it on their bus have clarified the position and confirmed there will be no extra £350m.

It's been pointed out repeatedly that the £350m for the NHS claim was more that just pointing out how it could be spent. The picture with Boris on this page says "Let's give our NHS the £350m the EU takes every week". That's not a vague "we'll have an extra £350m and we could spend it on the NHS" claim - it's a specific pledge to spend it on the NHS.

 

So everyone is obviously now aware of the situation are they not? We all know there may be some extra money for the NHs but it isn't going to be anything like £350m a week. So, in this knowledge, how has it damaged electoral prospects for the Tories? Well according to every poll taken since the vote for Brexit, the percentage of people who will vote Tory has gone up since the last election whilst those that will vote Labour is down.

 

You are clutching at straws in your hope that there millions of people were duped by the £350m claim, haven't yet realised they were duped and will eventually see the light and punish the Tories for their lies by note voting for them any more. You are kidding yourself.

I didn't say anything about how it will affect people's decision to vote Tory and I specifically pointed out that your carefully devised subset of people would be very narrow so I don't know why you think I'm hoping millions of people will no longer vote Tory because of it.

 

The issue is did some people vote for brexit because they were misled by the £350m for the NHS pledge? The answer to that is undoubtedly yes.

[I1L2T3]

I thought we were talking about the free movement of people from Turkey? Competition is inevitable and I think it is pretty clear that the poor of this country would prefer to compete with the poor of Turkey long distance.

 

Of course, Brexit doesn't solve all our problems and nor does it protect us from global challenges... when did anyone say it did? Globalisation may result in global wealth being redistributed more fairly and obviously the losers are those in the wealthiest countries... especially the poor. But free movement offers us no more protection from this than controlled movement.

 

Uncontrolled mass immigration is causing real division that will only bring the worst out in our species. It has to stop and if the EU can't see that then we need to distance ourselves from the EU and the eventual consequences of their decision... and thankfully that is just what is happening.

 

You still don't get it. If the likes of Liam Fox thought that as part of their globalising agenda the UK needed 2 million Turkish immigrants then it would be sanctioned in a heartbeat.

 

To them controlling immigration to them is not about reducing it necessarily, but making sure the powerful migratory flows that will happen are not influenced by the EU rules but allowed to happen freely as their globalising agenda requires.

 

At least you freely admit that the losers of this process will be the poor in this country. The problem is that those are the people who drove the Brexit vote over the line, voting in high numbers in economically disadvantaged areas of the country. That is going to become a very big problem.

[retep]

Old Boris that wily old fox,trying to get Turkey to vote for Christmas, who better to captain the sinking EU than Turkey.

[altus]

Old Boris that wily old fox,trying to get Turkey to vote for Christmas, who better to captain the sinking EU than Turkey.

You're missing the point as well. This is really about preparing the ground for a UK-Turkey trade deal. That is very likely to include visa free access to the UK for Turkish people - but look at the fuss on here when the EU proposed doing that for the Schengen area.

[NigelFargate]

You're missing the point as well. This is really about preparing the ground for a UK-Turkey trade deal. That is very likely to include visa free access to the UK for Turkish people - but look at the fuss on here when the EU proposed doing that for the Schengen area.

 

There is no reason why a trade deal between the UK and Turkey should include visa free travel. It shouldn't and it won't. The reason why it has been promised by the EU (subject to various conditions) has mainly to do with a) Turkey's blackmailing tactics with regard to the migrant crisis; and b) the fact that Turkey is already undergoing an the accession process and so already has a special relationship with the EU.

[altus]

There is no reason why a trade deal between the UK and Turkey should include visa free travel. It shouldn't and it won't.

Why shouldn't it? Promoting tourism between the two countries seems like a good idea to me and I'm sure all the British tourists who visit Turkey each year would welcome not having the expense/hassle of getting one.

[retep]

Why shouldn't it? Promoting tourism between the two countries seems like a good idea to me and I'm sure all the British tourists who visit Turkey each year would welcome not having the expense/hassle of getting one.

 

Good luck with that one,

"Turkey tourism industry experiences worst summer in 25 years amid terrorism and coup"

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/turkey-tourism-industry-statistics-worst-summer-terrorism-isis-coup-a7159731.html

[NigelFargate]

Why shouldn't it? Promoting tourism between the two countries seems like a good idea to me and I'm sure all the British tourists who visit Turkey each year would welcome not having the expense/hassle of getting one.

 

It would be a good idea if there could be a guarantee that Turkish visitors to the UK would go home after their trips, rather than regarding visa free travel as a conduit for migration. Moreover, the Turkish government, I am sure, is quite happy with the revenue it raises from the visas paid by UK tourists.

[altus]

It would be a good idea if there could be a guarantee that Turkish visitors to the UK would go home after their trips, rather than regarding visa free travel as a conduit for migration.

Apart from saving them a small amount of money, how is that different from the situation now with visas required?

 

Moreover, the Turkish government, I am sure, is quite happy with the revenue it raises from the visas paid by UK tourists.

I'm sure they are even happier with the money they pay into the economy once they are there.