In-Out vote: Has anyone changed their mind since the campaign started?

[panzer1]

It was one of the audience who asked a question of Dave, they said ( admit first I had heard of it ) it that junker had said we will be punishedif we stay or if we go, but he did not refute it

[Shef1985]

What's most likely to happen if we remain.

 

Will we join the Euro?

Will the Euro even survive?

Will we keep the rebate?

Who else is joining?

Who's leaving?

Are they keeping CAP and CFP?

What additional competencies will be transferred to the EU?

How, in future, will authority be divided up between the council, commission and EU parliament?

Is there to be an elected executive?

What matters which currently require unanimity will change to QMV?

What new treaties are in the works and will be be party to them?

 

Something to discuss when we stay in isn't it. Can you honestly say, honestly, that if we Brexit none of your above points will have any affect on us?

We will still have to deal with the EU but we will have ZERO say in the above.

 

---------- Post added 08-06-2016 at 16:43 ----------

 

It was one of the audience who asked a question of Dave, they said ( admit first I had heard of it ) it that junker had said we will be punishedif we stay or if we go, but he did not refute it

 

He did not say we will be punished if we remain.

[unbeliever]

Something to discuss when we stay in isn't it. Can you honestly say, honestly, that if we Brexit none of your above points will have any affect on us?

We will still have to deal with the EU but we will have ZERO say in the above.

 

Most of that list will not affect us at all if we're out, and the rest will affect us a lot less. I would not expect to have say in the affairs of other nations, nor should I.

[L00b]

That's not really difficult to answer. Every obstacle that would be placed in the way of UK professionals doing business in Europe is the same obstacle that European professionals would have in their way when trying to do business here. So if that obstacle is too high for you to get over, it will be for them as well.

 

They will take business EU from you and you will take their UK business from them.

You're missing the maintained requirement of UK businesses exporting to the EU for EU rights.

 

Which I'd have thought was of prime importance to UK exporters, considering the UK/EU trade 'imbalance' that Brexiters are never shy of positing in their economical arguments.

If the EU want to restrict the UK selling cars into Europe, the UK will restrict the sale of EU cars here. That will lose them rather more than it loses us. They sell twice as much to us as we sell to them.

 

Our business is supplying high end cars on lease. 70% of those cars come from Mercedes, BMW & Audi. If it becomes a problem our customers will manage fine with Aston Martin, Jaguar and Range Rovers. I'm sure those companies will enjoy the extra sales. Perhaps BMW will start making the big spanners in the Mini plant.

UK applicants can't replace an EU trade mark or design covering the EU market (with or without the UK) with a UK trade mark or design covering the UK alone.

 

UK and foreign applicants can always file an additional UK trade mark application once the UK is out of the EU TM system of course, to cover the UK market. But the total cost differential is -ballpark- currently about 30%, so a 70% loss in business value to UK service providers. And a 30% extra cost for UK businesses who until now covered the UK as part of their EU TM.

 

They could replace an EU trademark with a French-only and/or German-only trademark...but by the time they've applied and prosecuted a FR and a DE to registration, it'd be cheaper to do an EU (which gives you the remaining 26 countries to boot). That's how and why EU TM filings have rocketed in years gone, and why UK and foreign applicants will still be filing them hand over first after a Brexit.

 

Now do you see the problem?

With respect, I don't really know or understand exactly what your business is anyway...Nor am I going to pry and ask you for intimate details.

It's common knowledge on here. Intellectual property legal services. If you want to file a patent, a trade mark, a design, and/or obtain advice about these, and/or help with transfer and licensing, and/or bash infringers with them, in the UK or wherever else, you come to the likes of us.

When I said you're not doing it for monetary gain (I obviously realise any business exists to 'make money')...What I meant was if you're going to lose money if Brexit happens, then you're going to 'have' to find a workaround, one way or another. Or pack up shop, which I'm pretty sure you wouldn't accept anyway.

There is no other workaround to losing the capacity to file international designs and EU trade marks and designs from the UK, than to move shop into what remains of the EU. It shouldn't mean packing up shop in the UK, but it absolutely means reduced domestic business level - by at least as much as is automatically surrendered.

 

So the choice is fairly simple: do nothing and let 30% of the business go to what remains of the EU; or move to the EU to try and keep a hold of it. The first one means redundancies. The second one also does, unless the staff is suitably qualified for, and agreeable to, relocation. In either case, less taxable activity in the UK.

 

Unless of course UK and foreign businesses develop a sudden and mass urge to file UK patents, trade marks and designs relative to the last 50-odd years. Which, after 15 years in the game, I can't see happening, since the UK IP system is already a global benchmark of openness, accessibility and cost-effectiveness.

Edited June 8, 2016 by L00b

[sutty27]

That's not really difficult to answer. Every obstacle that would be placed in the way of UK professionals doing business in Europe is the same obstacle that European professionals would have in their way when trying to do business here. So if that obstacle is too high for you to get over, it will be for them as well.

 

They will take business EU from you and you will take their UK business from them.

 

If the EU want to restrict the UK selling cars into Europe, the UK will restrict the sale of EU cars here. That will lose them rather more than it loses us. They sell twice as much to us as we sell to them.

 

Our business is supplying high end cars on lease. 70% of those cars come from Mercedes, BMW & Audi. If it becomes a problem our customers will manage fine with Aston Martin, Jaguar and Range Rovers. I'm sure those companies will enjoy the extra sales. Perhaps BMW will start making the big spanners in the Mini plant.

 

A point that appears to be lost on the in camp.

[Revel]

He did not say we will be punished if we remain.

 

But we will be punished if we leave? That begs the question: why would you want to stay in a corrupt, undemocratic, totalitarian state which threatens to punish you if you break free?

 

They're holding us to ransom, but anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows it's all a bluff. Each and every member (France and Germany specifically) are shaking in their boots, knowing that the third-biggest contributor and the fifth-largest economy in the world, may choose to leave. Meanwhile, more and more poor countries are hoping to join, and it's France and Germany that will be footing the bill. Let's face it, it won't be too long until they refuse to carry the EU by themselves, and the whole thing collapses.

[foxy lady]

You're missing the maintained requirement of UK businesses exporting to the EU for EU rights.

 

Which I'd have thought was of prime importance to UK exporters, considering the UK/EU trade 'imbalance' that Brexiters are never shy of positing in their economical arguments.

UK applicants can't replace an EU trade mark or design covering the EU market (with or without the UK) with a UK trade mark or design covering the UK alone.

 

UK and foreign applicants can always file an additional UK trade mark application once the UK is out of the EU TM system of course, to cover the UK market. But the total cost differential is -ballpark- currently about 30%, so a 70% loss in business value to UK service providers. And a 30% extra cost for UK businesses who until now covered the UK as part of their EU TM.

 

They could replace an EU trademark with a French-only and/or German-only trademark...but by the time they've applied and prosecuted a FR and a DE to registration, it'd be cheaper to do an EU (which gives you the remaining 26 countries to boot). That's how and why EU TM filings have rocketed in years gone, and why UK and foreign applicants will still be filing them hand over first after a Brexit.

 

Now do you see the problem?

 

Do I see the problem? No. I just see you looking for one.

Just turn around that whole post but substitute EU and UK. The EU will have to comply with our laws if they want to sell to us. We had British Standards long before the EU tried to take us over. The EU have to rewire electrical appliances sold to the USA to comply with US standards. That's the way it works.

 

They have rather a lot to lose. If the UK manufacturers lost all their exports to the EU but had instead to manufacture all the goods and provide all the services the EU could no longer supply here because of our own trade barriers our GDP would go up by more than 10% and we would need to find a million or two extra workers to do that extra work.

Edited June 8, 2016 by foxy lady

[sutty27]

But we will be punished if we leave? That begs the question: why would you want to stay in a corrupt, undemocratic, totalitarian state which threatens to punish you if you break free?

 

They're holding us to ransom, but anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows it's all a bluff. Each and every member (France and Germany specifically) are shaking in their boots, knowing that the third-biggest contributor and the fifth-largest economy in the world, may choose to leave. Meanwhile, more and more poor countries are hoping to join, and it's France and Germany that will be footing the bill. Let's face it, it won't be too long until they refuse to carry the EU by themselves, and the whole thing collapses.

 

Its like Kim Jong-Un giving his people the right to choose their own destiny and leader but warning them that he might get angry and punish them if they don't choose him.

[hauxwell]

Like the advice from everyone who recommended we join the Euro?..You mean those experts who said the world would fall apart if we didn't join?...

 

You are right about the experts who said the world would fall apart if we did not join the euro. It is the countries who have adopted the euro such as Greece who are having problems, thank heavens we did not join and listen to the so called experts. I think these experts have no idea what they are talking about.

 

I am hoping we do leave, then hopefully start trading with the rest of the world and less with Europe. You never know if we leave we could start a domino effect and other eu countries might also do the same.

[foxy lady]

But we will be punished if we leave? That begs the question: why would you want to stay in a corrupt, undemocratic, totalitarian state which threatens to punish you if you break free?

 

They're holding us to ransom, but anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows it's all a bluff. Each and every member (France and Germany specifically) are shaking in their boots, knowing that the third-biggest contributor and the fifth-largest economy in the world, may choose to leave. Meanwhile, more and more poor countries are hoping to join, and it's France and Germany that will be footing the bill. Let's face it, it won't be too long until they refuse to carry the EU by themselves, and the whole thing collapses.

 

When the UK leaves the EU it will trigger revolt in EU countries who also want a referendum. We will be first out but certainly not the last.