What the Dutch get right..and the English don't

[Glennis]

Growing tulips.

 

Yes, they have some lovely bulb fields.

[tzijlstra]

On my very first visit to Amsterdam (many years ago) I ended up in a bar on a Sunday afternoon with some quite rowdy but good natured Ajax fans singing songs and swigging beer. When we asked who they had played it turned out they hadn't yet - they were on their way to play PSV and we could come along if we wanted. No sense of malice or antagonism or anything. It was such a great experience.

 

I have since been many times, but the high tax level mentioned by Tim, plus the high cost of property in Amsterdam has always put me off moving there. Though I have learned more recently it drops dramatically just 20 minutes or so from the city centre. So maybe worth a revisit.

 

Just picking up on one point you made tho. Similar amount of people? Population of the Netherlands in 2013 was quoted as 16.8m . England was 53m. So I think it's fair to say our systems are a bit overstreched and our big cities crowded. Maybe that itself doesn't help?

 

The Netherlands is far smaller than the UK though. It is about people per square kilometre. After Taiwan, South Korea, Lebanon and Rwanda (ie. the most dense in Europe) the Netherlands is the most populated 'real' country in the world. 404/km according to the latest figures. The UK is considerably less densely populated at 262. England itself though is a bit higher, around 416/km. So in that sense there isn't a lot between the two.

 

If you are considering moving to the Netherlands but house prices in Amsterdam (rightly, they are exorbitant) put you off, have a look at 'Amsterdam Light' - Utrecht, more affordable and a very similar city in style etc. Similar distance to Schiphol as well. I prefer Rotterdam though, it is far more cosmopolitan/modern than most places in the Netherlands and property is actually quite affordable there.

[crazyhorse]

It used to, it has all been eroded in the last ten years to create a 'flexible' workforce. Most people in the Netherlands who aren't fortunate enough to already have been in a permanent job now get told, when the third annual renewal which should make their work permanent is due; 'sorry, we can't hire you, go do something else for three months and then we can take you back on.' Simply because of the way the law works. This way the employer avoids getting full responsibility for the pension of the employee.

 

Tata is staying in the Netherlands because the Dutch aren't British. Dutch management culture is to be ruthless but with a firm eye on investment. Hoogovens (as it was before Corus, before British Steel, before Tata) were always at the frontline of innovation, working closely with Dutch universities. It is based directly on a deep sea harbour (it is amazing how few of the British Steel works actually are) and it has made a profit every year since Tata took over.

 

On top of that, the Dutch government has been fighting tooth and nail in Europe to deal with Chinese steel imports, whereas Javid has been trying to get it to continue. If you are a huge multinational that is suffering because of these steel dumps, where do you continue to invest?

 

Funny you should mention Tata.

 

We were in a café in Stompwijk and my youngest was wearing a T shirt for a Tata sponsored sports event at his school and the locals specifically asked if I worked for Tata.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2016 at 01:00 ----------

 

Haha! I have been taking a forum sabbatical (more or less), I'm spending most of my time behind the screen learning how to use video-editing software at the moment and I am getting a bit addicted to it...

 

Anyway, on the subject of the Netherlands. You have to keep in mind crazyhorse that the Dutch pay rather exorbitant amounts of tax for the pleasure of keeping the country well managed. That, coupled with a natural believe that the country we live in is manageable and thus should be managed combines to the pleasant experience you had.

 

the reason you don't see a lot of speeding on dual carriageways is because the amounts of taxes we pay aren't enough, so the police collect some more in the shape of speeding-fines.

 

What I am very positive about, though, is the infrastructure for cyclists. You will have noticed that in the Netherlands, on equal roads, traffic coming from the right always has right of way. It means drivers are far more considerate, the whole infrastructure of our towns and cities is designed around this principle and it means that in built-up areas people just don't speed. The roads don't allow for it. (And there is always that policeman on roads where they do allow for it...)

 

British roads are completely geared towards cars, in my opinion that is something that needs to change, but it requires a collective push. I am rather puzzled why the Amey work, for example, hasn't been used by the council to make considerable changes to the way cyclists move around the city. Would have been an ideal chance?

 

PS - on football hooligans, nothing worse than here. Just idiots who claim to support a club but instead get drunk and start smashing each others' heads in. None of that with the National team by the way, it is mainly Feyenoord, Ajax, Utrecht and ADO fans that still persist in that idiotic culture.

 

I suspected the tax bill might well be a bit higher...there were a lot of people in fluorescent jackets cutting the grass

[John Hope]

Holland:

 

Flat as a board

Dutch like the English

Everyone under 50 is fluent in English

The bicycle is king, kerbs are even angled for bicycles

The Dutch are tall

If you work overtime the company must provide a meal

Taxes are like 60%

Takes 5 minutes to get a Dutch social security number using your British passport as ID

Very liberal

Lots of Dutch flags flown everywhere

[hauxwell]

Haha! I have been taking a forum sabbatical (more or less), I'm spending most of my time behind the screen learning how to use video-editing software at the moment and I am getting a bit addicted to it...

 

Anyway, on the subject of the Netherlands. You have to keep in mind crazyhorse that the Dutch pay rather exorbitant amounts of tax for the pleasure of keeping the country well managed. That, coupled with a natural believe that the country we live in is manageable and thus should be managed combines to the pleasant experience you had.

 

the reason you don't see a lot of speeding on dual carriageways is because the amounts of taxes we pay aren't enough, so the police collect some more in the shape of speeding-fines.

 

What I am very positive about, though, is the infrastructure for cyclists. You will have noticed that in the Netherlands, on equal roads, traffic coming from the right always has right of way. It means drivers are far more considerate, the whole infrastructure of our towns and cities is designed around this principle and it means that in built-up areas people just don't speed. The roads don't allow for it. (And there is always that policeman on roads where they do allow for it...)

 

British roads are completely geared towards cars, in my opinion that is something that needs to change, but it requires a collective push. I am rather puzzled why the Amey work, for example, hasn't been used by the council to make considerable changes to the way cyclists move around the city. Would have been an ideal chance?

 

PS - on football hooligans, nothing worse than here. Just idiots who claim to support a club but instead get drunk and start smashing each others' heads in. None of that with the National team by the way, it is mainly Feyenoord, Ajax, Utrecht and ADO fans that still persist in that idiotic culture.

 

I hope you do not mind me pointing crazyhourse in your direction, I thought you would be the person who could give him some answers, and it looks like I am right.

[tzijlstra]

I hope you do not mind me pointing crazyhourse in your direction, I thought you would be the person who could give him some answers, and it looks like I am right.

 

No not at all hauxwell, I was just on a self-imposed forum holiday, unlike the recent forum holiday

[Tomjames]

Just returned from six days cycling round the southern Netherlands with the missus and the kids and here are my personal thoughts on how I felt it compared with England...

 

As with England, there are a similar amount of people, but the impact on their urban environment and their society in general, seems to be much

better handled than in England.

 

The cities (Maasluis, Delft, Leiden), small towns and villages we travelled through were very well kept...graffiti was limited to the underside of bridges and underpasses and never really seen elsewhere. Litter was non existent.

 

Even the obviously poorer parts of large cities and towns were well looked after. Tower blocks were set in well kept grounds with the obligatory lake or canal and I noticed large teams of council workers busy keeping them well presented.

 

Our host in a B&B one night said that in the Netherlands a lot of emphasis is put on looking after their towns and cities, and it seems she is correct...although I do wonder how much more it costs them in taxes to achieve that level of care.

 

Everytime we passed a playground we had to stop and let the kids have 30 mins. Nowhere were we hassled by the obligatory drunk or local weirdo and all we received was curiosity, smiles and interesting chats with the locals (who all had very good English).

 

The cafes were full of people drinking (sometime very strong beer), but nobody was loud, nobody was drunk.

 

The only exception was the 10 seater pedal powered bar we saw in Briele, being peddled erratically down the cyclepath...but that was funny and mellow, not hostile.

 

On the weekend, people were out on bikes in packs, and sailing and paddling down the waterways...in the week it was deadly quiet.

Nobody was angry and nobody was in a hurry and yet the country still functioned.

 

All in all it was a very relaxing, six days and I was well impressed by the Dutch and the way they run their country...

 

So why can't it happen here?

 

What are the differences?

 

Being a cyclist my first thoughts are that the infrastructure put in place for bikes slows down the whole pace of life over there...people simply cannot rush anywhere and do not seem to want to even when they can (for example, I noticed when riding next to dual carriageways, that none of the cars and trucks seemed to be in a particular rush). Everyone rides bikes and seems content to dawdle along.

 

Also nature seems to be embedded into the urban environment...even in large cities, the lakes and canals were full of wildlife...ducklings ambled across the cyclepaths and people sat on canalside benches watching them thoughtfully.

 

Perhaps they don't have the wide inequality we have in England, perhaps people are better educated (everyone spoke excellent English) and have more stake in their local environment, perhaps it is their different drinking culture...or a different work ethic.

 

Obviously it is not Utopian and they do have their problems...I spent an interesting time talking with a group of Dutch in a kids playground and they complained loudly about now having to work until 67 and felt they should leave the Euro etc...similar to people's concerns here I guess.

 

England has a lot going for it, friendly people (in Sheffield especially), empty wild space even close to cities (Sheffield again), interesting people and history, good food and drink...

 

...but England also has that dark, hostile, grey, miserable, frantic and unwelcoming side...that just does not seem as evident in The Netherlands. I guess it must exist, but I simply couldn't see much sign of it.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Move to Holland. It's simple to do aslong as we are part of the EU.

 

---------- Post added 18-06-2016 at 21:23 ----------

 

It used to, it has all been eroded in the last ten years to create a 'flexible' workforce. Most people in the Netherlands who aren't fortunate enough to already have been in a permanent job now get told, when the third annual renewal which should make their work permanent is due; 'sorry, we can't hire you, go do something else for three months and then we can take you back on.' Simply because of the way the law works. This way the employer avoids getting full responsibility for the pension of the employee.

 

Tata is staying in the Netherlands because the Dutch aren't British. Dutch management culture is to be ruthless but with a firm eye on investment. Hoogovens (as it was before Corus, before British Steel, before Tata) were always at the frontline of innovation, working closely with Dutch universities. It is based directly on a deep sea harbour (it is amazing how few of the British Steel works actually are) and it has made a profit every year since Tata took over.

 

On top of that, the Dutch government has been fighting tooth and nail in Europe to deal with Chinese steel imports, whereas Javid has been trying to get it to continue. If you are a huge multinational that is suffering because of these steel dumps, where do you continue to invest?

 

Workers rights are slowly eroding everywhere. I'm afraid it's a symptom of globalisation and companies gradually cutting the flexible workforce.