EU Voting Purely About Migrants?

[tzijlstra]

Doesn't seem like a terribly nice chap this Wilders. Bit of a Nick Griffin type as far as I can tell.

How did he get into government? Presumably this was when he was a member of the VVD. Or was it more political pressure on the other parties forcing them to make a gesture to woo his supporters?

I trust he's not getting anywhere with his plan to ban the Quran.

 

Wilders was a career VVD politician, a lot like Farage he was moderate and considerate, but when Fortuyn (the murdered populist character/politician who was set to sweep up a landslide victory before being murdered) came up he noticed a chance to become more important and turned into a populist making a living out of islamophobia. He soon noticed that the harsher his language, the more people 'the common man' were swayed and started to add anti-EU rhetoric to his arsenal. He has never in his new found role actually campaigned for something and indeed, the only time he was in power he pulled the plug within months because it turned out his party was full of rabid idiots who were uncontrollable and threatened the fabric of his party. He got cut back to size but since then has scrambled back up again to now lead the polls, again. His key-promise - Nexit. His plans post-Nexit? Nobody knows, but it will almost certainly include curtailing the rights of muslims.

[unbeliever]

Wilders was a career VVD politician, a lot like Farage he was moderate and considerate, but when Fortuyn (the murdered populist character/politician who was set to sweep up a landslide victory before being murdered) came up he noticed a chance to become more important and turned into a populist making a living out of islamophobia. He soon noticed that the harsher his language, the more people 'the common man' were swayed and started to add anti-EU rhetoric to his arsenal. He has never in his new found role actually campaigned for something and indeed, the only time he was in power he pulled the plug within months because it turned out his party was full of rabid idiots who were uncontrollable and threatened the fabric of his party. He got cut back to size but since then has scrambled back up again to now lead the polls, again. His key-promise - Nexit. His plans post-Nexit? Nobody knows, but it will almost certainly include curtailing the rights of muslims.

 

Okay Thanks. Not really on topic, but it is interesting to see how these problems we all have in common manifest in slightly different cultures and political systems.

[Radan]

Okay Thanks. Not really on topic, but it is interesting to see how these problems we all have in common manifest in slightly different cultures and political systems.

 

Read about Lega Nord next. They're a fun bunch.

[Zamo]

In a bizarre twist you seem to be condemning anti-immigration movements in Europe whilst happily defending anti-immigration in the UK?

 

So explain to me, was Farage's poster of immigrants eerily stirring racist feelings?

 

UKIP is not an anti-immigration party and is not far right. It is very different to some of the parties edging ever closer to power in other parts of Europe. There is no twist.

 

I think Farage's poster reflected a general concern about uncontrolled and un-selective immigration from the Muslims world. Not only do they represent a significant financial burden but within their ranks lurks the extremism and intolerance that has caused them to flee their own countries in the first place. Immigration needs to work for both the immigrants and the natives and this sort of un-selective immigration doesn't give us that.

 

Do such sights make the blood of racists boil? Probably but no more than watching queues of immigrants trying to break through border controls as shown my both the left and right wing media.

 

I think one of the biggest problems has been the refusal to acknowledge that the feelings of people who are more xenophobic/racist than most actually matter. The fact is that humans are communal beasts and like the feeling of security that we get from tight communities and/or a shared national identity. Rapid mass immigration upsets that and doesn't give people time to adjust. And shouting down concerns with cries of 'racist!' does make the feelings go away... they fester and intensify. I think that the liberal-left have done a good job over the years of suppressing any sensible debate on immigration (certainly any sensible action) and as a result pushed people further away from their position... the referendum result evidence of just how many people have been pushed away. And, obviously, those who were furthest away in the first place are now tinkering on the extreme, which isn't good but more thought and feeling suppression is not the answer. Immigration control is the answer.

[tzijlstra]

UKIP is not an anti-immigration party and is not far right. It is very different to some of the parties edging ever closer to power in other parts of Europe. There is no twist.

 

I think Farage's poster reflected a general concern about uncontrolled and un-selective immigration from the Muslims world. Not only do they represent a significant financial burden but within their ranks lurks the extremism and intolerance that has caused them to flee their own countries in the first place. Immigration needs to work for both the immigrants and the natives and this sort of un-selective immigration doesn't give us that.

 

Do such sights make the blood of racists boil? Probably but no more than watching queues of immigrants trying to break through border controls as shown my both the left and right wing media.

 

I think one of the biggest problems has been the refusal to acknowledge that the feelings of people who are more xenophobic/racist than most actually matter. The fact is that humans are communal beasts and like the feeling of security that we get from tight communities and/or a shared national identity. Rapid mass immigration upsets that and doesn't give people time to adjust. And shouting down concerns with cries of 'racist!' does make the feelings go away... they fester and intensify. I think that the liberal-left have done a good job over the years of suppressing any sensible debate on immigration (certainly any sensible action) and as a result pushed people further away from their position... the referendum result evidence of just how many people have been pushed away. And, obviously, those who were furthest away in the first place are now tinkering on the extreme, which isn't good but more thought and feeling suppression is not the answer. Immigration control is the answer.

 

First of all - point me at one party in Europe that is openly racist. Just one. You are just showing your ignorance on Europe again.

 

Secondly, the key worry emanating from the Parliament post-Brexit is that racists will feel legitimised. They are feeling legitimised if the increase in police reports is anything to go by. You are still trying to downplay that.

 

Where does it end Zamo? When is the 'suppression of xenophobia/racism makes it worse' argument going to flip over into 'xenophobia/racism is acceptable'.

[Michael_W]

I think a lot of British Asians voted leave on the strength that many of 'their communities' have been threatened by the influx from eastern Europe, a certain area in Sheffield has seen such !

[tzijlstra]

I think a lot of British Asians voted leave on the strength that many of 'their communities' have been threatened by the influx from eastern Europe, a certain area in Sheffield has seen such !

 

I know quite a few British Asians that voted leave who are now witnessing the rise of hate crime in their own personal environment. Might not have been the best decision. Curious what Mafya's take is on that.

[Zamo]

First of all - point me at one party in Europe that is openly racist. Just one. You are just showing your ignorance on Europe again.

 

Secondly, the key worry emanating from the Parliament post-Brexit is that racists will feel legitimised. They are feeling legitimised if the increase in police reports is anything to go by. You are still trying to downplay that.

 

Where does it end Zamo? When is the 'suppression of xenophobia/racism makes it worse' argument going to flip over into 'xenophobia/racism is acceptable'.

 

You don't think parties like Golden Dawn are openly racist?!?

 

so what if racist feel legitimised? The fact is the vast majority disagree with what they are doing and they will quickly learn.

 

The point I made is that it hasn't been just racism and xenophobia that has been suppressed. Legitimate concerns about immigration have been both suppressed and ignored. People have had enough and will continue to make increasing radical choices until they get what they want i.e. controlled immigration. People aren't going to suddenly put aside their biggest concern to silent a few idiot racists... let the police deal with them.

[tzijlstra]

You don't think parties like Golden Dawn are openly racist?!?

 

so what if racist feel legitimised? The fact is the vast majority disagree with what they are doing and they will quickly learn.

 

The point I made is that it hasn't been just racism and xenophobia that has been suppressed. Legitimate concerns about immigration have been both suppressed and ignored. People have had enough and will continue to make increasing radical choices until they get what they want i.e. controlled immigration. People aren't going to suddenly put aside their biggest concern to silent a few idiot racists... let the police deal with them.

 

Good point, I forgot about Golden Dawn, even then it is a minority and if their 3 MEPs set one foot wrong they will be jailed. That is 3 out of 751 (less than half a percent). I can't find any other party that openly pursues racist values.

 

When it comes to concerns about immigration, UKIP is not alone and instead of sailing the national isolationism route, perhaps, would have been better off aligning with other EU parties that feel immigration is indeed an issue. There is no doubt that most eastern EU members, the Dutch, Danes and several smaller but still relevant parties in the other nations would have backed a united British call to curb immigration and address complete free movement of persons. In fact, they did, in 2014.

 

The issue there is that the UK, led by the Coalition, ignored the opportunity to seize the mood in the EU and implement its own rules to prevent benefit immigration (which, in my personal opinion, is still only a small issue).

 

What I am saying is this: It was the UK politicians that missed the boat when it set off, it was, and is, possible for the UK, within the framework of the EU, to curb immigration. That they didn't, we both agree, was a mistake.

[Mister M]

UKIP is not an anti-immigration party and is not far right. It is very different to some of the parties edging ever closer to power in other parts of Europe. There is no twist.

 

I think Farage's poster reflected a general concern about uncontrolled and un-selective immigration from the Muslims world. Not only do they represent a significant financial burden but within their ranks lurks the extremism and intolerance that has caused them to flee their own countries in the first place. Immigration needs to work for both the immigrants and the natives and this sort of un-selective immigration doesn't give us that.

Do such sights make the blood of racists boil? Probably but no more than watching queues of immigrants trying to break through border controls as shown my both the left and right wing media.

 

I think one of the biggest problems has been the refusal to acknowledge that the feelings of people who are more xenophobic/racist than most actually matter. The fact is that humans are communal beasts and like the feeling of security that we get from tight communities and/or a shared national identity. Rapid mass immigration upsets that and doesn't give people time to adjust. And shouting down concerns with cries of 'racist!' does make the feelings go away... they fester and intensify. I think that the liberal-left have done a good job over the years of suppressing any sensible debate on immigration (certainly any sensible action) and as a result pushed people further away from their position... the referendum result evidence of just how many people have been pushed away. And, obviously, those who were furthest away in the first place are now tinkering on the extreme, which isn't good but more thought and feeling suppression is not the answer. Immigration control is the answer.

 

 

I think the whole issue of immigration is problematic for UKIP, partly because of the stance they take - which is at best disingenuous. Farage repeatedly complained in the campaign that it is not fair that immigrants form the rest of the world were 'discriminated against' over EU migrants (French, Germans, Belgians etc.)

 

Because in spite of the fact that he didn't specify Muslims, as you have done above, (though his now notorious poster which featured hordes of people fleeing war torn Syria had a taint of dog whistle politics about it). Does Nigel Farage really believe it is not fair that immigrants form the rest of the world were 'discriminated against' over EU migrants?

Or is he actually saying 'we don't want any of them. But because we don't want to sound like we're little Englanders, we'll dress up our loathing of the EU as a concern about immigrants' from, say, South Asia?

Edited June 29, 2016 by Mister M