Bob Arctor Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 So, to clarify, a load of labour voters ignored their leader and voted leave, the Labour Party are imploding giving the most right wing Tories since thatcher free reign to dismantle the welfare state etc, without any opposition or the safety net (and cash) of the EU, making swathes of the country make the deindustrialisation of the north and Midlands look like a day at the beach. That's about it? Yes, that seems to be about it. At the very point that the Tories were at each others' throats more than in living memory, Labour go one better instead of taking advantage. And none of them seem capable of asking themselves whether they might be in some part responsible for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Yes, that seems to be about it. At the very point that the Tories were at each others' throats more than in living memory, Labour go one better instead of taking advantage. And none of them seem capable of asking themselves whether they might be in some part responsible for it. Ooo no it's not their fault. It's someone else's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I am feeling so utterly confirmed in not voting for them for the last 19 years. What a set of complete arsehats. I was helping yet another person today who's been screwed over by the Tories' hateful disability benefits regime, and what were the Labour party doing? Fighting each other. Cheers for that, idiots. Why don't you all go to Raqqa. Would the old Blairite Labour types, Yvette Cooper et al, have done anything to help the victims of the hateful disability benefits regime? Where were they when the unemployed and others were being demonised by the Tories and the media? They're as bad as the Tories, which is why they were hardly any kind of opposition. No wonder people were looking for a new kind of Labour party, and new type of politician. Enter Jeremy Corbyn, who galvanised the public, if not the old party guard. At least Corbyn cares about people in that situation, and would do something about it. Would Yvette Cooper? The Labourites causing this upheaval care nothing about this country or its people or they wouldn't have challenged at this time when the country needs all the stability it can muster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Arctor Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Would the old Blairite Labour types, Yvette Cooper et al, have done anything to help the victims of the hateful disability benefits regime? Where were they when the unemployed and others were being demonised by the Tories and the media? They're as bad as the Tories, which is why they were hardly any kind of opposition. No wonder people were looking for a new kind of Labour party, and new type of politician. Enter Jeremy Corbyn, who galvanised the public, if not the old party guard. At least Corbyn cares about people in that situation, and would do something about it. Would Yvette Cooper? The Labourites causing this upheaval care nothing about this country or its people or they wouldn't have challenged at this time when the country needs all the stability it can muster. Corbyn would have been fine if he could have really connected with the electorate. His policies are ok. But there is just no evidence that he can persuade enough people that they are ok, he is just lacklustre. I find it hard to know which wing of the party has been worse, hence I want to just write all of them off. I'm not interested in the he said/she said nonsense that is going on, neither are most people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Would the old Blairite Labour types, Yvette Cooper et al, have done anything to help the victims of the hateful disability benefits regime? Where were they when the unemployed and others were being demonised by the Tories and the media? They're as bad as the Tories, which is why they were hardly any kind of opposition. No wonder people were looking for a new kind of Labour party, and new type of politician. Enter Jeremy Corbyn, who galvanised the public, if not the old party guard. At least Corbyn cares about people in that situation, and would do something about it. Would Yvette Cooper? The Labourites causing this upheaval care nothing about this country or its people or they wouldn't have challenged at this time when the country needs all the stability it can muster. Corbyn didn't even manage to convince YOU of the importance of Remain... You don't think that if he can't convince his own voters on a topic as important as that, he can convince the public at large on other matters as a Prime Minister, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyofborg Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Would the old Blairite Labour types, Yvette Cooper et al, have done anything to help the victims of the hateful disability benefits regime? i'm quite sure they would have Where were they when the unemployed and others were being demonised by the Tories and the media? they were being demonised too, and they did challenge the demonisations maybe not particularly effectively but that was more the fault of ed milliband than anyone else The Labourites causing this upheaval care nothing about this country or its people or they wouldn't have challenged at this time when the country needs all the stability it can muster. they care very much about this country, that is why they are doing this. which part of "Corbyn is incapable of winning a general election" do you not understand? he seems a very nice bloke and I'm sure that he is but we need more than a nice bloke, we need someone who has the ability to lead the country and corbyn simply doesn't have what it takes. he might be able to win over a few hard left people, but they were won over anyway. to stand any chance of forming a government he needs to win over the people who tony blair won over and on the basis of past perfromance he just will not do that. Edited June 28, 2016 by andyofborg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna B Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Corbyn would have been fine if he could have really connected with the electorate. His policies are ok. But there is just no evidence that he can persuade enough people that they are ok, he is just lacklustre. I find it hard to know which wing of the party has been worse, hence I want to just write all of them off. I'm not interested in the he said/she said nonsense that is going on, neither are most people. Corbyn was connecting with the electorate just fine. He would have persuaded a whole lot more if he had been given more air time and a decent crack of the whip in the media, but they have gone out of their way to disparage him, twist what he is about, and generally try and make him look foolish at every opportunity. He is working from the grass roots up, not top down. If he goes, the top will have won again. ---------- Post added 28-06-2016 at 23:27 ---------- Corbyn didn't even manage to convince YOU of the importance of Remain... You don't think that if he can't convince his own voters on a topic as important as that, he can convince the public at large on other matters as a Prime Minister, do you? I wasn't even aware it was a party issue. A Referendum is a free vote, not party politics. As for Corbyn I hardly saw him involved in any of the debates. Why not? Edited June 28, 2016 by Anna B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_bloke Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I wasn't even aware it was a party issue. A Referendum is a free vote, not party politics surely. As for Corbyn's influence, I hardly saw him involved in any of the debates, or even on telly much. Why not? It sounds like his lack of involvement is one of the reasons for the mass resignations. His reluctance to engage with the Remain campaign, to present a solid front or even to be noticed following the result. One of his (then) shadow cabinet said she had to call Corbyn directly 24 hours after the result to speak to him and get some direction as no one had heard from him and he'd left his front bench to deal with the media whilst he stayed away. Allegedly he was challenged by one of his MPs to say what box he ticked in the referendum and he refused to tell them. I think the 'media blame' is getting old now, even in the current shadow cabinet debacle he's had plenty of opportunity to speak to the media but Abbott and McDonnell are having to speak on his behalf as normal. Corbyn is an activist, not a party leader. He's clearly passionate and capable in front of a friendly crowd, but he can't lead a political party anymore than I can herd cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I wasn't even aware it was a party issue. A Referendum is a free vote, not party politics. As for Corbyn I hardly saw him involved in any of the debates. Why not? I am not talking about it being a party issue or not, I am saying that you, as a Corbyn supporter, did not even get convinced by his argument to Remain. Corbyn chose to campaign for the Remain side and didn't even manage to reach his own supporters with his message, how do you think he is going to convince the general public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECCOnoob Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Both absolutely spot on. Being popular with your own circle is the easy part. There is far far more to being a leader and that includes a ton of things that the cameras and general public never see. He is totally incompetent at these parts. Any other leader in the world would not survive 75% of their elected MPs having no confidence in them. Corbyn's own ego is taking over now. The friendly crowd is not going to hold him in post no matter how times his union puppetmasters and sideline protest groups chant. What business would survive if 75% of their workers voted for the manager to leave? Edited June 28, 2016 by ECCOnoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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