banjodeano Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 I think this is spot on. The parliamentary party is detached from the Labour grass roots as evidenced by the referendum result. The Corbynites are largely detached from the bulk of the parliamentary party. This might be fine if the Corbynites were representative of the grass roots but they are not. They only really reflect a fairly narrow section grass roots views but have exploded in numbers to dominate the party locally. It's a completely crazy scenario. And it's hard to keep track of what is going on. I've mostly given up trying to understand it. But has it not occurred to you, that these people are not Left wing fire brands, but just average men and women in the street who think that socialism has given them hope, have you seen the people at Corbyn rallies, they are not the thugs the media portray, most of them are students and pensioners... people are quick to dismiss these people as types that have latched onto Labour, nope, they have never been given a voice before, and now Corbyn has given them one :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 But has it not occurred to you, that these people are not Left wing fire brands, but just average men and women in the street who think that socialism has given them hope, have you seen the people at Corbyn rallies, they are not the thugs the media portray, most of them are students and pensioners... people are quick to dismiss these people as types that have latched onto Labour, nope, they have never been given a voice before, and now Corbyn has given them one :thumbsup: I'm not going to disagree with you. I'm making the point that neither the PLP or Momentum have a broad range of support at grass roots. That's what makes it such a mess. Quite possibly Corbyn has an inclusive programme that could win wider appeal. To me he doesn't articulated it clearly at all. I haven't got the foggiest how he could improve my life and I haven't got the foggiest how he would protect me from the worst excesses of a May government. They are both serious failings for the leader of the PLP and the opposition. No clear policy set and no clear opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 But has it not occurred to you, that these people are not Left wing fire brands, but just average men and women in the street who think that socialism has given them hope, have you seen the people at Corbyn rallies, they are not the thugs the media portray, most of them are students and pensioners... people are quick to dismiss these people as types that have latched onto Labour, nope, they have never been given a voice before, and now Corbyn has given them one :thumbsup: So they're supposedly all thinking to themselves: "Hey, that alternative economic system that always brings ruin and destitution whenever it's tried, shall we try it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Graham Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 But has it not occurred to you, that these people are not Left wing fire brands, but just average men and women in the street who think that socialism has given them hope, have you seen the people at Corbyn rallies, they are not the thugs the media portray, most of them are students and pensioners... people are quick to dismiss these people as types that have latched onto Labour, nope, they have never been given a voice before, and now Corbyn has given them one :thumbsup: It's a long way from a few youngsters with nothing to lose and a few pensioners with nothing to a mass movement capable of winning a general election. Of course, Corbyn appeals to anyone who wants something for nothing, but he needs to appeal to those who already have something, and don't want it taken away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjodeano Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 It's a long way from a few youngsters with nothing to lose and a few pensioners with nothing to a mass movement capable of winning a general election. Of course, Corbyn appeals to anyone who wants something for nothing, but he needs to appeal to those who already have something, and don't want it taken away. No... Corbyn appeals to anyone with a conscience This was from a while ago, but very much still relevant, i wonder whsat the actual figures will be now.... • He supports a publicly run NHS, a position supported by 84% of the public. • He supports the nationalisation of the railways, a position backed by 66% of the public. • He supports the nationalisation of the energy companies, a position supported by 68% of the public. • He believes the Royal Mail should be publicly owned, a position supported by 67% of the public. • He supports rent controls, a position supported by 60% of the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestTinsley Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 (edited) It's a long way from a few youngsters with nothing to lose and a few pensioners with nothing to a mass movement capable of winning a general election. Of course, Corbyn appeals to anyone who wants something for nothing, but he needs to appeal to those who already have something, and don't want it taken away. I didn't want to reply to your earlier query. But I find this 'question" quite funny. If JC wins or someone of the Left wins in the future, then the few you talk on behalf of will have to go by the will of the people Jim. It's called democracy. Politics of hate , and politics of the rich is good for a few. Time for a change..eh Edited July 24, 2016 by WestTinsley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Graham Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 (edited) Yeah, thats what everybody keeps saying, Corbyn is unelectable :hihi: he seems to be doing quite well in the by elections though, and the mayoral elections But there is little point getting elected if you are going to be just like the Tories, didnt some of the Labour MP's actually vote for tax credit cuts.? and also agree with austerity The point I am making, and Labour members are missing, is that you can't get elected unless you are just like the Tories. That's what Blair realised and that's how he got elected. Kinnock just kept flogging his old Socialist agenda, and couldn't buy a vote. And Blair remains the only Labour leader to be elected in more than 40 years. The British people simply do not buy the Socialist agenda. They have too much to lose. Socialism only works for those with little to lose, and there are just too few of those people in this country in the 21st century, despite Labour's attempts to import as many as possible. If you like, Labour has been successful and have made themselves irrelevant to all but a small minority. But what really makes Labour unelectable in any guise is a quick look at any Labour administration in the country and see the appalling education standards, the dreadful public services, the waste, the lack of inward investment, the bullying, undemocratic policy making, and the massive debts run up by councils. Then there is the awful track record of the last Labour government. And I think you underestimate the Rotherham effect on all voters across the country. And the current pathetic shenanigans within the party are not helping to win votes. If Labour could point to just ONE successful Socialist model in this country, or around the world, they might be able to make a case. But, they can't because there isn't one, and the British people are not about to let Corbyn and his bully boys, and girls, try (and fail) to set one up here. And that is very sad for those at the bottom who really need more than just a voice. ---------- Post added 24-07-2016 at 19:59 ---------- No... Corbyn appeals to anyone with a conscience This was from a while ago, but very much still relevant, i wonder whsat the actual figures will be now.... • He supports a publicly run NHS, a position supported by 84% of the public. • He supports the nationalisation of the railways, a position backed by 66% of the public. • He supports the nationalisation of the energy companies, a position supported by 68% of the public. • He believes the Royal Mail should be publicly owned, a position supported by 67% of the public. • He supports rent controls, a position supported by 60% of the public. A shame only 30.4% voted Labour at the last election then isn't it? Yes, people might be in favour of those things but are they in favour of economic ruin, unilateral disarmament, unlimited immigration, unlimited debt, higher taxes, bigger government, state control of many other things, and remaining in the EU. On balance, the public have chosen. I am sure 84% of the people are in favour of a publicly run NHS, but given Mid Staffs and many other scandals on Labour's watch are they in favour of a Labour run NHS? I doubt it. ---------- Post added 24-07-2016 at 20:07 ---------- I didn't want to reply to your earlier query. But I find this 'question" quite funny. If JC wins or someone of the Left wins in the future, then the few you talk on behalf of will have to go by the will of the people Jim. It's called democracy. Politics of hate , and politics of the rich is good for a few. Time for a change..eh What you fail to understand is that nobody gets elected in this country unless they win the middle ground, the people with no fixed political views but vote for the party best suited to them. These are not the few, they are the majority. They are the hard working, taxpaying, home owning, aspirational majority. Blair called them Mondeo Man and promised them better education, home ownership, lower taxes and great public services. He did OK for a while and then he broke his promise. Education was awful, the NHS was a sham, taxes rocketed, and then he broke the economy. Labour ran out of money, as all Labour governments do. Teresa May's words on the steps on 10 Downing St were aimed at exactly those people. And as long as she delivers for those people, Labour don't have a prayer. Edited July 24, 2016 by Jim Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECCOnoob Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 (edited) A shame only 30.4% voted Labour at the last election then isn't it? Yes, people might be in favour of those things but are they in favour of economic ruin, unilateral disarmament, unlimited immigration, unlimited debt, higher taxes, bigger government, state control of many other things, and remaining in the EU. On balance, the public have chosen. I am sure 84% of the people are in favour of a publicly run NHS, but given Mid Staffs and many other scandals on Labour's watch are they in favour of a Labour run NHS? I doubt it. Could not have put it any better myself. Why do people keep falling for the oldest trick in the book. Any mug can spout out the populist soundbites. Oh yeah we would all love for the NHS to provide everything that anyone ever needs all with those vital pen pushers, doctors and nurses on ever increasing taxpayer salaries. Yes it would be lovely if all our public services and utilities were back in our hands, away from those evil slimy greedy corporate types. Yes, of course I am going to say YES when some prat with a clipboard asks me whether I would support it. HOWEVER, things change when the bill drops on the mat. Perhaps before the stance is given all those 60% 70% 80% supporters would like explain exactly how in the real world it is actually going to be paid for. Do we really think that all those % supporting Compo and his fan club would still be so keen when tax rises, prices rises, unchallenged government monopolies, unchallenged unions holding the services to ransom, lack of investment and flabby overspending mismanaged quangos all return just like those good old days in the 1970s. The world has changed. Population and demand has changed. We are a global economy now. If something is too expensive, a consumer just has to click a mouse and orders it from abroad. The ever expanding retail graveyard of so called "household British names" is more than enough proof that us population are abandoning our British Made, British Run, British operated and British staffed companies for the better quality, cheaper made and cheaper priced foreign companies. A huge majority of our recent major investment and infrastructure has (thank god) been as a result of foreign companies. Someone care to name the last major British development without any foreign input? Maybe the unions could build some new things eh.. Maybe Mcdonnell and Co will come to the rescue and make Britain great again. Corbyn and his protest group is just child like thinking. Sometimes a grown up needs to take charge to actually bring some realitity to the world. Its almost as embarrassing as Russell Brand. Lets remember how that ended. Edited July 24, 2016 by ECCOnoob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeMaquis Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 The point I am making, and Labour members are missing, is that you can't get elected unless you are just like the Tories. The Tories themselves have only won one of the last five general elections with 37& of the vote and a majority of just twelve. As for Corbyn, I'm not even sure he's bothered about winning general elections. I'm not sure what it is that he wants and how he plans to get it. He's like a hijacker who's taken over the cockpit but can't remember what it is that his ransom demands are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penistone999 Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 We will be fine when we have a good clear out, then we can get the party back to its socialist roots, not a watered down tory version....although we all know it will leave the party in a mess for a few years, but its better sorted out now than never at all....... Have an enjoyable Sunday afternoon Foxy :thumbsup: A far left Socialist party can never win an election in this country. Yeah, they will appeal to the militant union members and loopy SWP members, but thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts