The consequence thread (Brexit)

[Guest]

Yes, of course there was no racism before the EU.

 

There is a nasty, hateful, xenophobic element in all countries. Ours has just been given a boost.

 

Leaving the EU is a perfectly legitimate thing, and for perfectly decent people to campaign for, even if some undesirable people do too, just like some undesirable anti semites are involved in the Labour party, but that doesn't mean that labour is an anti semitic party. Football attracts thugs, does that mean football and football fans in general are inherently bad?

Edited June 27, 2016 by Guest

[I1L2T3]

Leaving the EU is a perfectly legitimate thing, and for perfectly decent people to campaign for, even if some undesirable people do too, just like some undesirable anti semites are involved in the Labour party, but that doesn't say anything about the majority within labour. Football attracts thugs, does that mean football and football fans in general are inherently bad?

 

The issue is that the far right saw this as their campaign too. I said last week they would use it to validate their views. And they have. And now ordinary decent people are starting to bear the brunt of it. Many of the incidents in the link are directly related to the vote which seems to have given some a greater confidence to be overtly racist in public. This is the danger when politicians push the envelope too far with their rhetoric.

[The Joker]

From the Telegraph tonight, Boris writes:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

 

We heard the voices of millions of the forgotten people, who have seen no real increase in their incomes, while FTSE-100 chiefs now earn 150 times the average pay of their employees.

 

What's he saying, that he would cap executive pay? That excessive executive pay is the fault of the EU? Johnson would stiff the working class at any opportunity, they are like a different species to him.

 

This bit in bold^^^^^^

 

Boris has consistently fought against the EU's agreements to cap bankers bonuses at a year's salary, or double if a majority of shareholders agree:

 

Boris Johnson attacks EU bonus cap

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9913867/Boris-Johnson-attacks-EU-bonus-cap.html

Plans drawn up by Brussels to cap bankers’ bonuses are a “vengeful” attack on London, Boris Johnson said as he called on the Chancellor to step up his fight against the rules.

 

 

UK to fight EU plan to cap bankers' bonuses

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/feb/28/uk-fight-eu-cap-bankers-bonuses

David Cameron and Boris Johnson concerned that capping bonuses at basic salary will scare banks away from London

[Bob Arctor]

This bit in bold^^^^^^

 

Boris has consistently fought against the EU's agreements to cap bankers bonuses at a year's salary, or double if a majority of shareholders agree:

 

Boris Johnson attacks EU bonus cap

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9913867/Boris-Johnson-attacks-EU-bonus-cap.html

Plans drawn up by Brussels to cap bankers’ bonuses are a “vengeful” attack on London, Boris Johnson said as he called on the Chancellor to step up his fight against the rules.

 

 

UK to fight EU plan to cap bankers' bonuses

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/feb/28/uk-fight-eu-cap-bankers-bonuses

David Cameron and Boris Johnson concerned that capping bonuses at basic salary will scare banks away from London

 

We can expect to see similar statements from Tory Leavers in the coming months; vague reassurances to working class Leavers that they will be better off but without any concrete promises. Not that the promises are worth anything anyway, as people should already have learned.

[tzijlstra]

I am rather pleased with that piece by Boris. All he is saying he wants to be the result of this whole ordeal is the UK to be an EEA member and a withdrawal from the European Courts. Which is great, it gives Britain the right to extradite Abu Hamza and make its own Justice decisions, whilst the Europeans love it because it makes Britain a client-state rather than a deciding state so the EU can get on with the reform it needs. (ie. Britain still pays into the pot, freedom of movement and goods will persist (those that listened carefully to Boris knew it would anyway) and when it comes to trade laws Britain still has to be a good boy and implement them anyway)

 

Not sure it is what Britain voted for on Thursday, but then nobody knew what they were voting FOR anyway, most voted against.

 

So far, the week is starting pretty swell.

Edited June 27, 2016 by tzijlstra

[monkey104]

A bit of positive spin from George

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36637732

[Bob Arctor]

I am rather pleased with that piece by Boris. All he is saying he wants to be the result of this whole ordeal is the UK to be an EEA member and a withdrawal from the European Courts. Which is great, it gives Britain the right to extradite Abu Hamza and make its own Justice decisions, whilst the Europeans love it because it makes Britain a client-state rather than a deciding state so the EU can get on with the reform it needs. (ie. Britain still pays into the pot, freedom of movement and goods will persist (those that listened carefully to Boris knew it would anyway) and when it comes to trade laws Britain still has to be a good boy and implement them anyway)

 

Not sure it is what Britain voted for on Thursday, but then nobody knew what they were voting FOR anyway, most voted against.

 

So far, the week is starting pretty swell.

 

I wouldn't believe a word of it. His thoughts will be mainly on his leadership bid, he'll say whatever he needs to to win that, everything else is likely to be secondary for now.

[tzijlstra]

I wouldn't believe a word of it. His thoughts will be mainly on his leadership bid, he'll say whatever he needs to to win that, everything else is likely to be secondary for now.

 

I've seen the route he describes here replicated with other Tories. This seems to be their plan in layman's terms:

 

Become an EEA member after Article 50 has been executed. (Nothing really changes).

 

Downgrade from EEA to EFTA member, gradually, afterwards. (Nothing really changes, except that Britain becomes more selective on which EU rulings they accept).

 

Being a member of the single market is crucial for the City so if it is down to Boris that means accepting free movement of people and goods (and the EU laws that come with that, ie. trade law) in exchange for the right to passporting.

[Baz1]

I am rather pleased with that piece by Boris. All he is saying he wants to be the result of this whole ordeal is the UK to be an EEA member and a withdrawal from the European Courts. Which is great, it gives Britain the right to extradite Abu Hamza and make its own Justice decisions, whilst the Europeans love it because it makes Britain a client-state rather than a deciding state so the EU can get on with the reform it needs. (ie. Britain still pays into the pot, freedom of movement and goods will persist (those that listened carefully to Boris knew it would anyway) and when it comes to trade laws Britain still has to be a good boy and implement them anyway)

 

Not sure it is what Britain voted for on Thursday, but then nobody knew what they were voting FOR anyway, most voted against.

 

So far, the week is starting pretty swell.

 

I am a little skeptical of Boris but will see how this plays out- remember that he has no real power of authority yet given the turmoil in our government.

 

There is a campaign from some to stop Boris becoming PM- so this is something that could make things more tricky and less amicable.

 

Overall his article is encouraging but for now I think many just want to have some stability and basically a strong government in place.

[Eater Sundae]

Leaving the EU is a perfectly legitimate thing, and for perfectly decent people to campaign for, even if some undesirable people do too, just like some undesirable anti semites are involved in the Labour party, but that doesn't mean that labour is an anti semitic party. Football attracts thugs, does that mean football and football fans in general are inherently bad?

 

Of course voting to leave is legitimate for many reasons. Even voting for it because you are a racist xenophobe is a valid reason. (Just in case that reads badly, I don't mean YOU, or anyone else, I mean in general terms).

 

I don't believe that leavers as a whole are racist xenophobes. I don't believe that a majority of them are. But there are racist xenophobes that have been validated by this vote.

 

When we are members of the EU, there are good points and bad points associated with that position.

 

When we choose to leave the EU, there are good points and bad points associated with that position. One of the bad points, IMO, is that racist, xenophobic attitudes and actions become validated (in the minds of those who now take the opportunity to vent them).

 

To me that is a key disadvantage of leaving. Similarly some see the UK's economy as a key point in making a decision. Others may see border control as a key aspect. There of lots of aspects which are plus and minus points for each option.

 

In my opinion, if racism and xenophobia increase by much, then that is too big a price to pay. It is early days yet, and the euphoria of a release of tensions may die down. I hope it does. However, it may not.

 

A couple of other points.

 

1. Without the release of emotions which were allowed by the referendum, legitimate and unresolved concerns may (and probably would) have festered, and might have released in a violent way at a later time. This current release may in fact be a good thing if it leads to better relations in future (although I don't think we will be that lucky).

 

2. Different people will have voted the way they have for varied reasons. Some of them will have voted to leave because of what they see as too many foreigners, or muslims, or illegal immigrants, or asylum seekers or some combination of these. In a couple of years time, when they see no obvious difference in the number or perceived number of these people, and they didn't understand that the leaders of the leave campaign were talking about "controlled immigration" and not necessarily "reduced immigration", what then? I can see this blowing up, although they will no longer be able to blame the EU.

 

Finally, with the football analogy. It is not football's fault that it attracts a few thugs. However, it doesn't mean that you necessarily want to risk having a football club move to the end of your street.

 

Also, it's not a good sign if politicians (like Putin and one whose name I don't know) take actions to encourage thugish behaviour by fans by either supporting it or just accepting it. They blow their whistles and the pavlovian dogs jump.

 

Not much different from issuing posters showing queues of foreign looking people - are they refugees? Asylum seekers? Scroungers? Would be terrorists? Benefits claimants? Steelers of jobs? Who knows? Who cares? They look foreign, that'll do.