The consequence thread (Brexit)

[I1L2T3]

The entirety of the SNP, the Libdems, the Greens, 99% of the labour party and countless celebrities such as Geldoff, Izzard and Damon Albarn. All handwringing about Brexit but its their personal financial situations they care about. Pagehall doesn't exist to these people.

 

Frankly I care more about sovereignty and democracy. Without that we're nothing.

 

This is complete nonsense Alan and you well know it.

 

You seem to have realised you have helped screw over the economy and are just lashing out.

[Eater Sundae]

The entirety of the SNP, the Libdems, the Greens, 99% of the labour party and countless celebrities such as Geldoff, Izzard and Damon Albarn. All handwringing about Brexit but its their personal financial situations they care about. Pagehall doesn't exist to these people.

 

 

 

Frankly I care more about sovereignty and democracy. Without that we're nothing.

 

Do you seriously think that the celebs you named are going to be seriously financially compromised by brexit? The ones who're going to be worse affected are the poorer people.

[apelike]

 

I disagree, that is not the way of 'politics', it is the way of British politics. In the Netherlands a politician that lies gets nailed to the post, rightfully. I don't see Boris and co nailed to the post.

 

But here we are talking about British politics and the UK referendum and what happens or not in the Netherlands.

 

Also, you can not deny the sheer stupidity of people in Wales and Cornwall voting out on the basis of migration, whilst their areas are least affected by immigration and most affected by EU funding.

 

Why is it stupidity, and did they vote out because of migration? The stupid bit is trying to tar them all with the "voted out on the basis of migration brush" because there is no real reason for them to do so. As you say they are least affected by migration. Once again we have people who voted stay trying to portray that the leave vote was popular because of the migration issue and while it played a part it was not the only reason. The main people who seem upset in Cornwall are the Councillors and those in charge who are now complaining, not the people.

 

---------- Post added 08-07-2016 at 23:02 ----------

 

Do you seriously think that the celebs you named are going to be seriously financially compromised by brexit? The ones who're going to be worse affected are the poorer people.

 

No they are not as people who are poor have little to lose.

[I1L2T3]

But here we are talking about British politics and the UK referendum and what happens or not in the Netherlands.

 

Why is it stupidity, and did they vote out because of migration? The stupid bit is trying to tar them all with the "voted out on the basis of migration brush" because there is no real reason for them to do so. As you say they are least affected by migration. Once again we have people who voted stay trying to portray that the leave vote was popular because of the migration issue and while it played a part it was not the only reason. The main people who seem upset in Cornwall are the Councillors and those in charge who are now complaining, not the people.

 

It was the major reason. Every time the going got tough for the leave campaign the topic switched back to immigration. When the economic argument was lost then back to immigration. When ignorance about how the EU worked, when the truth was revealed about sovereignty then every time, again and again, over and over it was back to immigration.

 

I don't know why leavers are trying to pretend otherwise.

[tzijlstra]

It was the major reason. Every time the going got tough for the leave campaign the topic switched back to immigration. When the economic argument was lost then back to immigration. When ignorance about how the EU worked, when the truth was revealed about sovereignty then every time, again and again, over and over it was back to immigration.

 

I don't know why leavers are trying to pretend otherwise.

 

This, not a lot else to add. Without the immigration argument the leave campaign would have failed. Pretending anything else is, frankly, ignorant.

[*_ash_*]

Figures go up - ha, you voted for this, and as expected, more people here

Figures go down - ha, well done, the country is crippled and employment numbers down, you voted for this.

 

That is because both outcomes were entirely predictable as a consequence of Brexit. You can check my post history going back years. It isn't rocket science, it is adding 2 and 2 up.

 

Lucky it isn't rocket science! If they will write something negative whichever happens, then there is a no win for the OUT arguers.

 

In your wording of it: I'd say they are equally entirely predictable if we'd voted remain too, which shows that this will be another nonsense argument. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm sure of it, people will write this.

 

 

This is what will happen... Figures will go up, and would have continued to do so if remain had won, as well as now brexit.

If we had voted remain, the numbers wouldn't go down, even if the job market collapses. That's the difference. It's a flaw in the entire EU concept, for rich countries at least.

 

Cameron (and Labour agree and even Corbyn has said the same) when implying that this is a flaw in the free-movement system (but probably only exposed in recent years) and tried to fix it with his attempts to restrict benefits to newcomers. It would never work, because we won't see people starving and homeless in this country (and rightly so).

[Phanerothyme]

It was the major reason. Every time the going got tough for the leave campaign the topic switched back to immigration. When the economic argument was lost then back to immigration. When ignorance about how the EU worked, when the truth was revealed about sovereignty then every time, again and again, over and over it was back to immigration.

 

It unequivocally doesn't follow that the Leave campaign's focus on immigration is the reason Cornish and Welsh Leave voters were in the majority.

 

Given how long this issue has been rumbling on (25 years or more) people have had plenty of times to make their mind up, and the campaign won't have necessarily have influenced, or changed their decision at the ballot box.

 

Uncdecideds basically faced a choice between the status quo and change. They were equally vulnerable to terminological inexcactitude on both sides of the debate.

[*_ash_*]

It unequivocally doesn't follow that the Leave campaign's focus on immigration is the reason Cornish and Welsh Leave voters were in the majority.

 

Given how long this issue has been rumbling on (25 years or more) people have had plenty of times to make their mind up, and the campaign won't have necessarily have influenced, or changed their decision at the ballot box.

 

Uncdecideds basically faced a choice between the status quo and change. They were equally vulnerable to terminological inexcactitude on both sides of the debate.

 

 

I think most people had their mind's made up before any of the TV trash started. The papers and TV perhaps had a chance to swing some votes, but it probably didn't sway many, and certainly not enough to convince the OUTers to change, anymore than INners to change.

 

I think most people who made the effort to vote who were undecided must have had an inkling to which way. Perhaps a few racist posters helped, who knows? I doubt it though. People tend to vote on what they think will be best for themselves and their families when they are undecided.

[tzijlstra]

Lucky it isn't rocket science! If they will write something negative whichever happens, then there is a no win for the OUT arguers.

 

In your wording of it: I'd say they are equally entirely predictable if we'd voted remain too, which shows that this will be another nonsense argument. We'll have to wait and see, but I'm sure of it, people will write this.

 

There is one significant difference between in and out, in would not have brought the financial repercussions that out has.

 

This is what will happen... Figures will go up, and would have continued to do so if remain had won, as well as now brexit.

If we had voted remain, the numbers wouldn't go down, even if the job market collapses. That's the difference. It's a flaw in the entire EU concept, for rich countries at least.

 

No it isn't, it is what keeps rich countries ticking over. An economy is completely reliant on its workforce, the UK, for decades, ever since it started transforming to a service-focussed economy, has had an education deficit in its workforce, which has been filled by migrants. The transformation was successful and now there is a general workforce deficit, as has been for the past years, that needs filling. This can all be read back in the various ONS and government reports of the last years.

 

Cameron (and Labour agree and even Corbyn has said the same) when implying that this is a flaw in the free-movement system (but probably only exposed in recent years) and tried to fix it with his attempts to restrict benefits to newcomers. It would never work, because we won't see people starving and homeless in this country (and rightly so).

 

It is their job to pander to the people. The people have been told, for decades, without valid reason, that immigration to this country is a huge problem. It isn't, it has been a huge plus to the country, all statistical analysis bares that out.

 

---------- Post added 09-07-2016 at 08:06 ----------

 

It unequivocally doesn't follow that the Leave campaign's focus on immigration is the reason Cornish and Welsh Leave voters were in the majority.

 

Given how long this issue has been rumbling on (25 years or more) people have had plenty of times to make their mind up, and the campaign won't have necessarily have influenced, or changed their decision at the ballot box.

 

Uncdecideds basically faced a choice between the status quo and change. They were equally vulnerable to terminological inexcactitude on both sides of the debate.

 

But then one needs to decide why this has been rumbling on for 25 years or more - politicians in Westminster blaming the EU at every turn.

[I1L2T3]

It unequivocally doesn't follow that the Leave campaign's focus on immigration is the reason Cornish and Welsh Leave voters were in the majority.

 

Given how long this issue has been rumbling on (25 years or more) people have had plenty of times to make their mind up, and the campaign won't have necessarily have influenced, or changed their decision at the ballot box.

 

Uncdecideds basically faced a choice between the status quo and change. They were equally vulnerable to terminological inexcactitude on both sides of the debate.

 

All the polling, before and after the referendum, suggests that immigration or fear of immigration was the major factor.

 

The immigration figures published not before the referendum were a major turning point for the leave campaign, according to polls reducing the remain lead from 10+ points to 4-5 points.

 

Don't misunderstand though. I am no means discounting other factors such as the national economy, local economic conditions, concepts of democracy and sovereignty etc.. All played a part but immigration was the major driver. Brexiters spent more than 10 years focusing on that, gradually building the narrative and stoking discontent.

 

---------- Post added 09-07-2016 at 09:18 ----------

 

 

I think most people had their mind's made up before any of the TV trash started. The papers and TV perhaps had a chance to swing some votes, but it probably didn't sway many, and certainly not enough to convince the OUTers to change, anymore than INners to change.

 

I think most people who made the effort to vote who were undecided must have had an inkling to which way. Perhaps a few racist posters helped, who knows? I doubt it though. People tend to vote on what they think will be best for themselves and their families when they are undecided.

 

Can you explain what the economic benefits of Brexit are? And why people might have thought that it would be good for their families?

 

It's time Brexiters started addressing this after their complete failure to do so in the run-up to the referendum.

 

In practical terms what will improve for the average family? And how long will it take before they see benefits?