The consequence thread (Brexit)

[L00b]

Thought the attraction of the EU to remainers was that it was highly regulated (Make sure nothing goes wrong like) make your minds up.

Wrong, and no changing of mind at hand at all. It's your (apparent) black-and-white outlook which might skew your understanding

 

In an economical sense, the attraction of the EU is that its national markets were as freely available to an e.g. Sheffield company as the regional markets of London, Bristol, Birmingham, Liverpool <etc.>

 

In that context, "making sure that nothing goes wrong" (i.e. that everyone plays from substantially the same rule book) is achieved through harmonisation (regulation is a subset of that, one of the ways to a means).

 

But contrary to the sentiment and opinion of many Brexiters, not every last aspect of life in any one EU member state is harmonised, very far from it: only those aspects that run, or can run, interference with that freedom of market. That explains why VAT regimes are harmonised, government subsidies to private section are harmonised <etc.> i.e. so one EU member state can't dump economically at the expense of other EU member states and get an 'unfair' leg up on them.

 

But, and of course, competitive advantages can still be created beyond and outside of that context.

 

Witness e.g. Ireland's very long-standing bargain basement corpo tax rate, which has worked really well for them, and been an equally-long standing bugbear of Brussels (and which the Irish managed to keep even though they went to the ECB cap in hand post-2008 ).

 

Or, in the UK, the biggest such competitive advantage was, and still is (so long as the UK is still in the EU before it exits, and depending on the eventual exit terms re. the UK's passporting rights), financial deregulation (-relative to e.g. France and Germany), which the UK had preserved quite nicely away from Brussels' regulatory mitts with staying out of the € club.

Edited August 17, 2016 by L00b

[Justin Smith]

And that is the type of thought that made people vote leave. Believing in some rumour, that a person will do a better/worse job based on where they were born.

That could be a thread all on its own, but I fear it would be deleted because of fears about racism.

 

It`s got nothing to do with racism or even saying one nations plumbers (or tradesmen) do a better job than any other. It`s just how the market works. If there are more plumbers the customer will have more choice, the tradesmen will be more bothered about actually getting any particular job, and, theoretically, the price will drop. A shortage of plumbers means the opposite. Tradesmen can pick and choose which jobs they want and charge what they want.

 

---------- Post added 17-08-2016 at 16:10 ----------

 

That's not what he said. He said that a shortage of plumbers removed their incentive to provide a high quality service, and that importing extra plumbers would fix that.

He did not say that Polish plumbers are inherently superior.

 

Exactly......

 

In fact this post (on a thread about Carpet Cleaners) sums it all up, i.e. why working class areas tended to vote to leave the EU and middle class areas voted to stay :

 

[Dated 6 Apr 16, i.e. pre referendum vote]

I had three carpets cleaned by 5carats for £55. I got three quotes for the same job £100, £66 and £55. "5carats" came same day and turned up on time. The guy worked hard and did a good job. Even better he accepted payment by cheque and provided an invoice. Thus, one assumes, he pays his tax, unlike the "cash in hand" brigade stealing from the rest of us taxpayers..... The chap who came round was originally from Lithuania, if they`re all like him can we have some more over here ?

 

If you`re someone more likely to use a Carpet Cleaner (or other tradesmen) staying in the EU benefits you. If you`re more likely to be a Carpet Cleaner (or tradesman) it may not do, particularly if you`re not confident in your ability to be competitive. The latter is ignoring the effect of a possible shrunken economy however. If people don`t have as much money they`re less likely to employ a tradesman.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Justin Smith

[L00b]

Also, processing all these visa applications will create a load of public sector jobs here, which is good. [Alternatively, I'm sure some Tory donor will be happy to set up a company to contract it out to.]

And either will be funded...how?

 

I have to ask, given that Hammond restricted his matched funding commitment earlier this week to 2020 (which rings a bit hollow, given May's article 50 TFEU 2019 horizon)

[El Cid]

He did not say that Polish plumbers are inherently superior.

 

Which could be true, or false.

 

People are more likely to work hard if the alternative is poverty.

[Justin Smith]

Which could be true, or false.

 

People are more likely to work hard if the alternative is poverty.

 

I can remember back in 2000 when I could see I`d have to get out of TV repairs (getting harder and harder to fix, and also cheaper ! ). I had had very bad service from all the aerial installers I`d come across, when I bought the shop none of them could even be arsed to come and quote for the job of getting a decent aerial system in here. I thought if they can still be in business treating their customers like that then aerials must be a **** easy business to be in. So I got into it, and I was right, it was (at that time, it was the start of Digital) far easier to make money in the aerial installation game than TV repairs because there was more work than aerial installers to do it. That`s why we need more tradesmen, particularly plumbers, from Europe (or anywhere else come to that).

[El Cid]

That`s why we need more tradesmen, particularly plumbers, from Europe (or anywhere else come to that).

 

If that is your opinion, there must be something wrong with English people, or maybe its the lack of training?

[Justin Smith]

If that is your opinion, there must be something wrong with English people, or maybe its the lack of training?

 

No, it`s nothing to do with the quality of training, it`s simply that there are too few of them. A shortage of tradesmen relative to the amount of work on offer equals higher prices and poorer service. If one gets poor service in any business (from most of the businesses in that trade) it can only be because there`s a lack of competition.

[milquetoast1]

That`s why we need more tradesmen, particularly plumbers, from Europe (or anywhere else come to that).

 

We actually have two Polish plumbers (and a Polish maths teacher) working for us on not much more than minimum wage. Apparently the demand for the legendary Polish plumber has never been what the media has us believe, not enough to trump a regular income anyway.

 

It does highlight my main objection to the EU's dogmatic stance on free movement of labour. Poland is down 2 skilled workers and a teacher, whilst 3 unknown UK residents are claiming benefits when they could be doing these unskilled jobs. Sure, our company benefits with these highly competent workers, as do they. But I fail to see how the societies of Poland or the UK benefit.

 

I'm also reminded about the protests against globalisation, of which this sort of free movement of labour was part of, that was prevalent on the left of politics 25/30 years ago. I would say part of the DNA of socialist thought over decades. How things have changed. At least Dennis Skinner and Jeremy Corbyn (secretly) have not forgotten.

[El Cid]

A shortage of tradesmen relative to the amount of work on offer equals higher prices and poorer service. If one gets poor service in any business (from most of the businesses in that trade) it can only be because there`s a lack of competition.

 

Is that why the banks/schools/hospitals are in such a mess, too few bosses running the banks with the inadequate experience, does not make sense to me.

 

---------- Post added 17-08-2016 at 17:49 ----------

 

because there`s a lack of competition.

 

Why is this plumbing, which other professions do you think it applies to, and why?

[gomgeg]

This is a bit confusing, there was a thread on here a few days ago saying that the construction industry was in recession.

If that's the case surely there are plenty of tradespeople looking for work.