Cyclone Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Yeah, nice one, guess about the future of the country, guess about the level of economic damage, guess about pretty much everything. But "we've taken the country back, bruv". Init. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mafya Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Can I ask you pro Brexiteers one simple question ? Let`s make some assumptions. Assume for a moment that the negotiations to leave the EU don`t go as well as the Leave lobby said they would. Also assume that the pound stays at a low level and prices go up, as will, and in fact, is, happening. Last (reasonable) assumption, because of the above polls started indicating that there is no longer a majority wanting to leave the EU. Would demands for a second referendum still be "undemocratic" ? And if so, why ? Remember this isn`t like a General Election where the public gets a chance to change its mind every 5 years. ---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 11:28 ---------- Exactly. How can an election (even a second referendum on Scottish Independence or the EU) be undemocratic ? Isn`t that a contradiction in terms ? Having referendum after referendum until you get the decision you want is not democracy, we bomb other country's in the name of spreading democracy so let's practice what we preach and stick to it. I run a convenience store and brexit will effect my business but I'm not moaning about it or asking for a second referendum due to changing my mind. You remainers can continue moaning all you like but the reality is that more people voted for brexit than to remain so you have to live with that democratic decision. Western democracy eh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Yeah, nice one, guess about the future of the country, guess about the level of economic damage, guess about pretty much everything. I think that's what happens when democracy is used, a bit like a general election when you don't know how the next government will pan out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Having referendum after referendum until you get the decision you want is not democracy, we bomb other country's in the name of spreading democracy so let's practice what we preach and stick to it. I run a convenience store and brexit will effect my business but I'm not moaning about it or asking for a second referendum due to changing my mind. You remainers can continue moaning all you like but the reality is that more people voted for brexit than to remain so you have to live with that democratic decision. Western democracy eh! Well said that man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Smith Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Having referendum after referendum until you get the decision you want is not democracy, we bomb other country's in the name of spreading democracy so let's practice what we preach and stick to it. I run a convenience store and brexit will effect my business but I'm not moaning about it or asking for a second referendum due to changing my mind. You remainers can continue moaning all you like but the reality is that more people voted for brexit than to remain so you have to live with that democratic decision. Western democracy eh! That`s not answering the question though is it ? A referendum is, effectively an opinion poll at a point in time. If it can be demonstrated that opinion has moved, particularly if it`s because the electorate were "sold a pup" under false pretences, why is holding another referendum "undemocratic" ? Let`s get down to brass tacks. The people who think a second referendum* is undemocratic are the pro Brexiteers who are frightened they may get a different result. What`s so hypocritical about that is there`s no way they`d have just gone away and accepted it if the result had been 52/48 the other way. Everyone knows that. * Not that I`m saying it should be held now, it should be held when the actual deal (we`ve negotiated) is known. ---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 15:54 ---------- I think that's what happens when democracy is used, a bit like a general election when you don't know how the next government will pan out. No, the EU referendum is nothing like a General Election. I accept the result of GEs even if I`m not happy about the result because I know it can be changed in 5 years. Leaving the EU is totally different. ---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 15:56 ---------- The referendum was to leave the EU and free movement, immigration and the free market was an integral part of being a member, so it was a vote about those as well The Referendum result is whatever the Brexiteers want it to mean, that`s effectively what has happened, and they`re not being put on the spot about it when being interviewed. Talk about an easy ride......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) That`s not answering the question though is it ? A referendum is, effectively an opinion poll at a point in time. If it can be demonstrated that opinion has moved, particularly if it`s because the electorate were "sold a pup" under false pretences, why is holding another referendum "undemocratic" ? Let`s get down to brass tacks. The people who think a second referendum* is undemocratic are the pro Brexiteers who are frightened they may get a different result. What`s so hypocritical about that is there`s no way they`d have just gone away and accepted it if the result had been 52/48 the other way. Everyone knows that. * Not that I`m saying it should be held now, it should be held when the actual deal (we`ve negotiated) is known. Holding the referendum repeatedly until you get the result you want is clearly undemocratic. If you want to go best 2 out of 3, then I'm game. The gap between the last 2 referenda was pretty much 40 years. So in another 40 years we can have another one and whoever wins that one is the overall winner. Can't say fairer than that. Edited October 14, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 ---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 15:54 ---------- No, the EU referendum is nothing like a General Election. I accept the result of GEs even if I`m not happy about the result because I know it can be changed in 5 years. Leaving the EU is totally different. But it is still a democratic process like a general election where the aftermath is unquantifiable. It is also possible to re-join the EU at a later date. ---------- Post added 14-10-2016 at 15:56 ---------- The Referendum result is whatever the Brexiteers want it to mean, that`s effectively what has happened, and they`re not being put on the spot about it when being interviewed. Talk about an easy ride......... Its not about what the Brexiters want it to mean, although I'm not too sure what you mean. The referendum result is just that, a result with a majority decision that voted to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 (edited) I think that's what happens when democracy is used, a bit like a general election when you don't know how the next government will pan out. But it is still a democratic process like a general election where the aftermath is unquantifiable. It is also possible to re-join the EU at a later date.I guess we can safely take political manifestos out of future debates about the 2020 GE, then Its not about what the Brexiters want it to mean, although I'm not too sure what you mean. The referendum result is just that, a result with a majority decision that voted to leave.The referendum was just that indeed. But the Brexiters (in charge) are currently interpreting it to mean 'hard' Brexit (without full access to the single market), and it is taking rowdy arguments in Parliament, several court cases and talk of a 2nd referendum in Scotland to try and get it back into Parliamentary democracy check. So in that respect, since June 24 and for the time being still, I'm afraid it absolutely has been, and remains, what the Brexiters (in charge) want it to mean. Its certainly the way it's being understood by the guys across the table so far. In the meantime, first the Leave side said there would be no consequences...then the Leave side acknowledged that there would be consequences, but that they'd worth it...and now some of the Leave side are starting blaming "Project Fear" for the cascading consequences e.g. the devaluing GBP Edited October 14, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Smith Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 But it is still a democratic process like a general election where the aftermath is unquantifiable. It is also possible to re-join the EU at a later date. WE all know that`s highly unlikely, and, one assumes, we`d get worse terms than we`ve got now. Its not about what the Brexiters want it to mean, although I'm not too sure what you mean. The referendum result is just that, a result with a majority decision that voted to leave. "The Referendum result means whatever the Brexiteers want it to mean". They`re saying the public voted for this and that, most disingenuously of all "the vote was not for a soft Brexit". How the hell would they know ? In fact all the statistics prove they`re wrong. Only 52% of the electorate voted to leave the EU. It can be taken as read that the 48% who voted to remain don`t want a "hard Brexit", so that means that at least 96% of those who voted to leave the EU must have wanted a "hard Brexit". That`s obviously absolute TOSH. I`d bet anyone who wants to take me on that many of those who voted Leave didn`t (and probably don`t even now) know the single market works. Basically the Brexit lobby are the tail that is wagging the Government dog, in a big way. And it`s repugnant. Let`s remember Boris Johnson was given the Foreign Secretary job. A man who has never been thought of as being worth any cabinet post at all. The sole reason, he was a major Brexit supporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexo Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 The referendum vote was on the basis that Britain would retain single market "access" and have a £350m per week windfall that could be given to the NHS. The lies quickly unravelled and by July 6% of leavers had changed their mind and a further 4% were unsure. That difference is enough to change the result. The future has worsened since so we can expect those numbers to have increased. Decisions should be taken with the best possible analysis and experts, not on a pack of lies. Once they have worked out what the proposals are, a referendum can be held so a well-informed decision can be reached. The decision to go to war in Iraq was made on the back of lies. It worked out badly and was politically toxic for a decade. They shouldn't repeat those errors of politics. If "leaving the EU" is a good idea then support will increase once the plans are known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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