L00b Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) It appears not everybody will be hard Brexiting after all. Cabinet considers plan to keep City's single market access by 'paying billions to EU' after Brexit Well, well, well...if that isn't a tariff barrier, I don't know what is So that's financial services and car manufacturers to get protection from Brexit. You can bet every other exporting industry is going to be arguing for similar special treatment. I wonder if we'll end up paying more to the EU than we do now. In the long run, very probably. Edited October 18, 2016 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 You're absolutely entitled to that opinion. I disagree. The facts are very much more supportive of my position but that's another discussion. I would hope that we could at least agree that the matter of how the UK reaches it's CO2 reduction targets should be a matter for the UK government . And of course it is. It doesn't say we have to build this plant here and shut down that there and paint that one green and that one purple - it just gives a target. That's all. The matter of how the UK reaches it's reduction target is still entirely up to the UK to decide. It's so non contentious I don't know anyone anyone on any side of the debate that thinks it is a problem, except for you. ---------- Post added 18-10-2016 at 13:33 ---------- Just changed myself and saved a lot. There are some good deals out there if you avoid the big 6. But you'll still be paying a lot more than our American cousins. Have you perhaps considered why that is? The cheapest electricity in the USA comes from - wait for it - a renewable source..... The rest is from plants that are run so close to the bone with so little investment and safety issues that California ended up with rolling blackouts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Smith Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Every time that I change [electricity / gas] suppliers, I save hundreds of pounds, they will be paying me to take the gas/electricity soon Don`t get me onto the subject of the power companies. I mistrust all of them, they deliberately make their tariffs difficult to compare, it`s not a true market*. And privatisation was a British (Tory) policy....... * They should all be forced to have the same simple tariff structure. They can charge what they like but it must be on that same tariff, one rate (for gas or electric), all companies have the same standing charge and no additional charge should the customer choose not to pay by DD (makes moving easier). A very welcome side effect would be that it`d make all those very very annoying "average use" bills obsolete. This would be a genuine market and result in s price drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 So basically, not a free market then because you have trouble doing sums...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NigelFargate Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 I don't think it's a match between hard and soft brexit here - so much as fast and slow brexit. Given the number of lawyers limbering up for their corporate and non-profit clients, I think we can safely say it's going to be a slow brexit. Maybe even in our lifetimes. You make a very good point here. There are various adjectives which could better describe the likely trajectory of 'Brexit'. The fact that the conventional wisdom is that there is merely a binary choice between so-called 'hard' and 'soft' forms is testament to the low quality of debate on this issue. Moreover, we are being constantly presented with a false dichotomy, not least because there is nothing 'soft' about a Brexit which would mean the UK still have to pay large amounts into the EU budget; whilst still being subject to the rulings of the European court of Justice; and whilst still having to accept unlimited immigration from the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) And of course it is. It doesn't say we have to build this plant here and shut down that there and paint that one green and that one purple - it just gives a target. That's all. The matter of how the UK reaches it's reduction target is still entirely up to the UK to decide. It's so non contentious I don't know anyone anyone on any side of the debate that thinks it is a problem, except for you. ---------- Post added 18-10-2016 at 13:33 ---------- Have you perhaps considered why that is? The cheapest electricity in the USA comes from - wait for it - a renewable source..... The rest is from plants that are run so close to the bone with so little investment and safety issues that California ended up with rolling blackouts... Please stop with all this Ad Hom stuff. I know you're angry about Brexit but it's no excuse to get personal. You're wrong. I quoted the consumer price for the US in post #5068 and you quoted the UK spot price in post #5071. Since you insist on being awkward about every tiny little detail and questioning things you don't actually doubt at all just to cause trouble: The US whole price varies regionally but is around $20-30/MWh. That's under half the price you quoted for the UK (£53.34/MWh). https://www.eia.gov/electricity/wholesale/ You're (I suspect deliberately) missing my point on the renewables, but this is plain to see form the thread so I'll leave it there. Edited October 18, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Please stop with all this Ad Hom stuff. I know you're angry about Brexit but it's no excuse to get personal. You're wrong. I quoted the consumer price for the US in post #5068 and you quoted the UK spot price in post #5071. Since you insist on being awkward about every tiny little detail and questioning things you don't actually doubt at all just to cause trouble: The US whole price varies regionally but is around $20/MWh. That's well under half the price you quoted for the UK (£53.34/MWh). https://www.eia.gov/electricity/wholesale/ You're (I suspect deliberately) missing my point on the renewables, but this is plain to see form the thread so I'll leave it there. Post 5064 I clearly mention spot prices. Which you then quoted in post 5068 and then decided to quote consumer prices. Without saying it was consumer prices. As for the ad hominem, all I can say is you appear to be hoisting yourself with your own petard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) Post 5064 I clearly mention spot prices. Which you then quoted in post 5068 and then decided to quote consumer prices. Without saying it was consumer prices. As for the ad hominem, all I can say is you appear to be hoisting yourself with your own petard. If you're referring to the use of the term "remoaners" I've apologised for that more than once. Which is more than I ever get from anybody else on this forum. Mentioning is not the same as quoting, but we now have spot prices for both the US and the UK. So my original point stands that the UK (and in fact the EU as a whole) is paying about twice as much as it should for electricity. This applies where you select wholesale or consumer retail prices. From the context of the discussion consumer retail prices seemed more relevant but whatever you prefer... This (high EU energy prices) is something I have now established. With facts. Which you previously questioned. As is the fact that there is such a thing as central EU energy policy. I blame EU energy policy for this. Presuming that you're not now going to continue questioning whether there is such a thing as EU energy policy... What do you have to say about this? Edited October 18, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 No, I was referring to your further efforts in ad hom but never mind.. You've not established why you think the USA/China price for electricity is acceptable. Ever tried breathing the air in some of the pollution traps in those countries? It's a lot more unpleasant than over here. Thats just for starters. Ever seen just how cheap the US and China can get coal out the ground? (and the disastrous conditions left afterwards?) thats another reason. Security of supply? I mentioned the California power crisis before which you appear to have glossed over. Cheapest isn't the "best" price. There are many other considerations. I notice you didn't apologise for your misquoting of the power prices either. I'd have expected more integrity from a scientist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) No, I was referring to your further efforts in ad hom but never mind.. You've not established why you think the USA/China price for electricity is acceptable. Ever tried breathing the air in some of the pollution traps in those countries? It's a lot more unpleasant than over here. Thats just for starters. Ever seen just how cheap the US and China can get coal out the ground? (and the disastrous conditions left afterwards?) thats another reason. Security of supply? I mentioned the California power crisis before which you appear to have glossed over. Cheapest isn't the "best" price. There are many other considerations. Firstly, I observe that you have now moved from questioning whether there is such a thing as EU energy policy, through questioning whether EU energy is as a expensive as a result of that policy, now to whether the extra expense forced upon us by that policy is worthwhile. This all stemming from your warning about the really relatively small increase in energy prices resulting from the poor Sterling exchange rate right now. It would be nice if you would acknowledge that my case, even if you still disagree with it on some grounds, did not deserve the ridicule you directed at it earlier. Been to Athens? Pollution is a problem in many places, including inside the EU. Since you force me to provide conclusive evidence for every single point I try to make, whether there's genuine doubt about it or not, do you have any to back up the above? If there are any other posts in which you think I've behaved poorly, please point them out. I get worked up myself sometimes, but I do try to remain courteous and when I fail to do so I'm inclined to apologise. This is with the exception of banana-crazed Momentum activists. You're very critical here of the means by which the US generate their electricity, but US energy related CO2 production has gone down by ~15% since 2000. http://www.eia.gov/environment/emissions/state/analysis/ They're using fracked gas a lot more, which is I know still a fossil fuel, but a very clean one and relatively low in CO2. Edited October 18, 2016 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts