The consequence thread (Brexit)

[unbeliever]

Give me a heads up for the NATOxit, the UNexit and the WTOxit referenda, won't you?

 

"A man alone in the desert is sovereign. He is also powerless."

 

from your very own Michael Heseltine

 

I don't see the case for NATO. For the UN there is surrender of sovereignty, but it's relatively minor. The WTO I think even more so.

Thing makes them tolerable is that they don't progress in the same way. There's no well founded sense of having your sovereignty continuously eroded, if not by treaty then by directive or court judgement.

The same problem surrounds the ECHR. Every time the court extends its reach there's inevitably a backlash.

[Cyclone]

https://www.ft.com/content/4155cd6c-9485-11e6-a80e-bcd69f323a8b

 

What price the mystical 'sovereignty'.

[unbeliever]

https://www.ft.com/content/4155cd6c-9485-11e6-a80e-bcd69f323a8b

 

What price the mystical 'sovereignty'.

 

It's not mystical at all.

[Cyclone]

I am not sovereign because I am subject to the laws of the UK. The UK is not sovereign because it is subject to the laws of the EU. You cannot be sovereign and subject simultaneously.

 

Being in a group which jointly decides on laws for itself is not being subject to the group.

[unbeliever]

Being in a group which jointly decides on laws for itself is not being subject to the group.

 

It rather is. No different to being a citizen of a democracy.

[NigelFargate]

I refuse to believe you are that dense.

 

---------- Post added 19-10-2016 at 14:35 ----------

 

 

Im sure that's convenient for you to think yes.

 

It is neither convenient nor inconvenient for me to think this. That 'EU citizenship' is fundamentally and qualitatively different from citizenship of a state is a matter of fact, not opinion.

[L00b]

I don't see the case for NATO. For the UN there is surrender of sovereignty, but it's relatively minor. The WTO I think even more so.

Thing makes them tolerable is that they don't progress in the same way. There's no well founded sense of having your sovereignty continuously eroded, if not by treaty then by directive or court judgement.

The same problem surrounds the ECHR. Every time the court extends its reach there's inevitably a backlash.

So you don't see how NATO imposing an annual spend of 2% GDP on defence erodes our sovereignty?

That's £54bn and change. Per year. And a Treaty obligation on the UK.

 

You don't see how WTO (even under MFN status) imposing tariffs on UK imports and exports erodes our sovereignty? A mandatory 9.7% uplift on each of our 1.2m exported cars that Parliament can't repel or legislate away?

 

Okayyy.

 

I was wondering if you would lump the ECHR into that. The ECHR, which has sod all to do with EU membership, and most of which the UK built from the ground up. Lest we forget

 

Add an alarm clock entry to my list for the ECHRxit then, and let's join Belarus and Kosovo as ECHR-less states, they must be feeling lonely.

[unbeliever]

So you don't see how NATO imposing an annual spend of 2% GDP on defence erodes our sovereignty?

That's £54bn and change. Per year. And a Treaty obligation on the UK.

 

You don't see how WTO (even under MFN status) imposing tariffs on UK imports and exports erodes our sovereignty? A mandatory 9.7% uplift on each of our 1.2m exported cars that Parliament can't repel or legislate away?

 

Okayyy.

 

I was wondering if you would lump the ECHR into that. The ECHR, which has sod all to do with EU membership, and most of which the UK built from the ground up. Lest we forget

 

Add an alarm clock entry to my list for the ECHRxit then, and let's join Belarus and Kosovo as ECHR-less states, they must be feeling lonely.

 

 

I'm fully aware that the ECHR is not part of the EU, and if you look you can find posts from me stating emphatically exactly that.

Have another look at my last post. I acknowledged that membership these organisations reduces our sovereignty. You're countering arguments that I have not made. The distinction is the progressive erosion of sovereignty. At least in my view.

[L00b]

I'm fully aware that the ECHR is not part of the EU, and if you look you can find posts from me stating emphatically exactly that. Have another look at my last post. I acknowledged that membership these organisations reduces our sovereignty. You're countering arguments that I have not made. The distinction is the progressive erosion of sovereignty. At least in my view.

I answered the post in which you said:

 

"I don't see the case for NATO".

 

"For the UN there is surrender of sovereignty, but it's relatively minor. The WTO I think even more so."

 

"Thing makes them tolerable is that they don't progress in the same way."

 

This was in reply to my post answering your "I am not sovereign because I am subject to the laws of the UK. The UK is not sovereign because it is subject to the laws of the EU. You cannot be sovereign and subject simultaneously."

 

The UK post-Brexit will remain simultaneously sovereign and subject to its (non-EU) international Treaty obligations just the same, and in some cases to a much worse extent: the resumption of WTO status (if it should happen) will force WTO trading rules and tariffs unto the UK and so subsume the UK's sovereignty further, relative to the level which it currently enjoys as an EU member state.

 

That's just one example (the easiest with which most are accustomed by now). There are countless others. Besides the encroachments to come when the UK begins to negotiate trade deals with 60 countries afresh. If you expect the UK to be treated on the same level by the US, China, Russia, India <etc.> once it's outside the EU, get ready for a shock. Though you'll have had all the warnings you needed, if not by experts and the likes of us remoaners pre-referendum and since, then by the heads of states concerned themselves.

 

I didn't think I needed to explain this to you, but hey.

Edited October 19, 2016 by L00b

[unbeliever]

I answered the post in which you said:

 

"I don't see the case for NATO".

 

"For the UN there is surrender of sovereignty, but it's relatively minor. The WTO I think even more so."

 

"Thing makes them tolerable is that they don't progress in the same way."

 

This was in reply to my post answering your "I am not sovereign because I am subject to the laws of the UK. The UK is not sovereign because it is subject to the laws of the EU. You cannot be sovereign and subject simultaneously."

 

The UK post-Brexit will remain simultaneously sovereign and subject to its (non-EU) international Treaty obligations just the same, and in some cases to a much worse extent: the resumption of WTO status (if it should happen) will force WTO trading rules and tariffs unto the UK and so subsume the UK's sovereignty further, relative to the level which it currently enjoys as an EU member state.

 

That's just one example (the easiest with which most are accustomed by now). There are countless others. Besides the encroachments to come when the UK begins to negotiate trade deals with 60 countries afresh.

 

I didn't think I needed to explain this to you, but hey.

 

I get it. The EU is not the only organisation to which the UK is subject.

But the control exercised by the EU over UK law is in a completely different league.