El Cid Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 He pleaded guilty to careless driving. We have already posted the sentencing guidance for careless driving. If you want to know the judges thinking then ask for a trasncript of the decision from the court. You didnt know what he was charged with and failed to check. You didnt know there were sentencing guidelines. You didnt check those guidelines. Its always worth doing the above so you can then make informed and knowledgeable comments or decisions. You do like attacking the person rather than discussing the subject! If you look at the guidelines, in my opinion the guidelines say he should have got 36 weeks custody. Page 15 https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/web_causing_death_by_driving_definitive_guideline.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santo Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 You do like attacking the person rather than discussing the subject! If you look at the guidelines, in my opinion the guidelines say he should have got 36 weeks custody. Page 15 https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/web_causing_death_by_driving_definitive_guideline.pdf 36 weeks. He got 8 months suspended. And he plead guilty. So, you are satisfied now? Has the AG been in touch yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 36 weeks. He got 8 months suspended. And he plead guilty. So, you are satisfied now? Has the AG been in touch yet? Nothing yet. Killing someone should carry a prison sentence, not a suspended prison sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 You do like attacking the person rather than discussing the subject! If you look at the guidelines, in my opinion the guidelines say he should have got 36 weeks custody. Page 15 https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/web_causing_death_by_driving_definitive_guideline.pdf You are missing the point' the charge that was given was careless driving, thats what he pleaded to and thats what he was found guilty of. If the CPS believe it was the wrong charge they can appeal, if they believe the judge was wrong in not following sentencing guidelines they can appeal. As ikits not the judges choice, then you will have to make a complaint that the CPS were someohow in error in not following their own procedures or erred in law. https://www.cps.gov.uk/contact/feedback_and_complaints/complaints_guidance.html I have doubts your complaint to the AG was the correct place. I have actually taken the time to explain the situation to you and how it works, all you have is an opinion based on nothing. the only reason you have the guildeline is because we made you aware that such things exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECCOnoob Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Nothing yet. Killing someone should carry a prison sentence, not a suspended prison sentence. Why? Think about the context. What rehabilition would said 80+ year old benefit from being locked up in jail. Killing someone does not automatically mean jail. The circumstances, the intent, the remorse, the individual needs to be taken into consideration. Not so black and white. That's why they have guidelines. That's why experienced judges have discretion and make the decisions not random internet posters who were not present during the trial and dont know the full facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redfox Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 You are missing the point' the charge that was given was careless driving, thats what he pleaded to and thats what he was found guilty of. If the CPS believe it was the wrong charge they can appeal, if they believe the judge was wrong in not following sentencing guidelines they can appeal. As ikits not the judges choice, then you will have to make a complaint that the CPS were someohow in error in not following their own procedures or erred in law. https://www.cps.gov.uk/contact/feedback_and_complaints/complaints_guidance.html I have doubts your complaint to the AG was the correct place. I have actually taken the time to explain the situation to you and how it works, all you have is an opinion based on nothing. the only reason you have the guildeline is because we made you aware that such things exist. Not sure you meant to say the CPS can appeal if they think its the wrong charge. In any case where a fatality follows an RTA there are very strict guidelines for the CPS and police to follow. In my experience they are investigated extremely thoroughly and the evidence gathered is considered by a senior lawyer who is tasked with dealing with such cases. I seem to think that any charging decision has to go through a further 1 or two CPS lawyers before it is approved. As for AG Ref - it is a sensible system to allow the Crown to appeal an unduly lenient sentence - but it now allows disgruntled ill-informed armchair rumples to make a complaint which has then to be considered. If the prosecutor believes the sentence unduly lenient there are very strict time frames to be followed and procedures to comply with. The AG office then considers the case. It is upto them to decide if the case should be the subject of a reference. Just because a Judge sentences outside the guidelines does not mean a reference will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest makapaka Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I think the guidelines need looking at. Particularly in respect of the nature of the crime. Take stuff like fraud from a bank. You get these young brokers getting 8yrs for defrauding a massive corporation, yet someone does something awful to a kid (for example) and gets the same. For the former, get them to pay the money back if poss, prebent them from doing a similar job and then maybe set them a term of using whatever financial skills they had on a free basis for a period of time. Don't tie up a prison cell for someone who's not going to physically hurt someone etc. Another one that does me is driving offences, not people who have got drunk and driven, but maybe someone who just makes a mistake with bad consequences. People get years for things like that when the not really a danger to society. Prison should be used more for keeping dangerous people off the streets rather than a deterrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santo Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I think the guidelines need looking at. Particularly in respect of the nature of the crime. Take stuff like fraud from a bank. You get these young brokers getting 8yrs for defrauding a massive corporation, yet someone does something awful to a kid (for example) and gets the same. For the former, get them to pay the money back if poss, prebent them from doing a similar job and then maybe set them a term of using whatever financial skills they had on a free basis for a period of time. Don't tie up a prison cell for someone who's not going to physically hurt someone etc. Another one that does me is driving offences, not people who have got drunk and driven, but maybe someone who just makes a mistake with bad consequences. People get years for things like that when the not really a danger to society. Prison should be used more for keeping dangerous people off the streets rather than a deterrent. Not really. Prison must also be used as a deterrent. The MP and his wife that were jailed because she claimed to be driving when he got a speeding fine are an example. They were jailed as a deterrent to stop others doing the same. As it is such an easy offense to commit and the chances of being caught are small (she mentioned it in a column I believe, dozy cow) the punishment has to be severe. It didn't help that they didn't plead guilty early when it came to sentencing however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Not sure you meant to say the CPS can appeal if they think its the wrong charge. In any case where a fatality follows an RTA there are very strict guidelines for the CPS and police to follow. In my experience they are investigated extremely thoroughly and the evidence gathered is considered by a senior lawyer who is tasked with dealing with such cases. I seem to think that any charging decision has to go through a further 1 or two CPS lawyers before it is approved. As for AG Ref - it is a sensible system to allow the Crown to appeal an unduly lenient sentence - but it now allows disgruntled ill-informed armchair rumples to make a complaint which has then to be considered. If the prosecutor believes the sentence unduly lenient there are very strict time frames to be followed and procedures to comply with. The AG office then considers the case. It is upto them to decide if the case should be the subject of a reference. Just because a Judge sentences outside the guidelines does not mean a reference will follow. Sorry that first bit is wrong. I was just pointing out that the CPS obviously co ordinate with the police over charging matters.They must have found it acceptable for him to plead guilty for careless driving. They have their guidelines to follow, so it wont have happened by accident. That reduces the chances of the wrong charge being made. The OP thinks there has been some sort of mistake. If you follow the thread it looks as though the judge was within guidelines, but the OP is unhappy, hence his wish to complain to the AG, that someone somewhere got something wrong, starting with the judge or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 Why? Think about the context. What rehabilition would said 80+ year old benefit from being locked up in jail. Killing someone does not automatically mean jail. That is how our courts work. You get caught speeding and its a slap on the wrists, if you are unlucky and someone just happens to be crossing the road, they would throw the book at you if you kill someone. I dont know how much vision this chap had, but he would have failed the eyesight test by a long way. It was a deliberate act, and an accident waiting to happen. Anyone could drink 3/4 pints and be safer than this man. The court seem to have ignored the driving license fraud as irrelevant. ---------- Post added 17-08-2016 at 21:52 ---------- As for AG Ref - it is a sensible system to allow the Crown to appeal an unduly lenient sentence - but it now allows disgruntled ill-informed armchair rumples to make a complaint which has then to be considered. They can print off my email and throw it in the bin, after a quick read; I view anyone that takes the time to try to make things work better a good fellow. If they have had no complaints from relatives, then it will be straight in the bin. But in my experience, very few people complain, except on SF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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