The end of the Labour party

[Mister M]

Anna, do you honestly believe that Labours standing in the country at the moment is because the voters want them to be more left wing?

I think you are about the same vintage as me and I can't honestly remember a truly left wing government. Most people have moved on from those politics and now just want the best for their families and will vote accordingly.

The day when anyone who worked in a factory or on the tools voted Labour automatically have gone.

Whatever we may think about things like tuition fees (I hate them) and remind you it's Labour that brought them in, kids have more opportunity than ever before to further their education and get a better life than their parents.

 

Perhaps people overtly don't want a left wing government, with all the images which goes with that - however, left wing policies such as rail nationalisation, more money for the NHS, increasing top rate of taxes are popular with the public (though people also support some policies associated with the hard right too!)

Also it is true that the number of skilled industrial jobs has been declining, but there has been an increase in what are classed as low skilled service jobs (care workers, supermarket staff etc.)

You also mentioned about parents wanting their children to have a better life than them. This article suggests that the post war trajectory of that desire might go into reverse.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/comment/article-3577153/Why-younger-generation-no-longer-better-life-parents.html

Who knows what the implications are of that occurrence.

[gomgeg]

Mister M.

People may well want all the things you mention, but that tends to change when it's being taken out of their pockets. Anna has consistently atracked bankers and fat cats and though I may agree in some cases I'm pragmatic enough to know that there will always be inequalities in life, and when the wealth creators are taxed to the hilt they will move that wealth. I'm personally all for a high wage low tax economy.

Your link may well be correct for the young generation, but I can only go on my own personal family experiences. Our grandkids are tens of thousands in debt but it doesn't seem to worry them as much as it does us and their parents.

And they've certainly got more material goods than we had, good luck to them.

[Anna B]

I do need to you explain it to me Anna because you keep repeatedly banging on about it and never ever quantify what your gripe is.

 

So if you expect it to be taken seriously and debated you need to specify what it is you think is the problem, rather than sling out more of your passive aggressive insults.[/quote.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

OK. If you insist.

 

Insecurity. In 2017 more people can't afford a mortgage, more people can't afford rent, more people are visibly homeless, and a lot more besides are 'sofa surfing.' or stuck at home with Mum and Dad.

 

Job insecurity abounds, with 0 hours jobs, temporary contracts, the 'gig' economy, unsustainable self employment, part time work, and more in minimum wage jobs which is not enough to sustain a family. Growth of foodbanks from 29 in 2009 to 445 in 2015 according to Trussel Trust, not counting other charities, (4 in sheffield, now up to 18.)

Meanwhile, Silly 6 figure salaries for some, and multi million pound bonuses for the people who least deserve it. Gap between rich and poor widening.

 

Public services in decline, everything from bin collections to social care. Creeping privatisation. Poor care for the elderly, poor care for the mentally ill, poor deal for carers. Pensions in jeopardy, Retirement age rising, fear of old age due to lack of money and lack of care. One year in an average care home £30,000. 'Rolling back' of the hard won welfare state penalising those in most need like the disabled, poor provision / rationing in health care. Insecurity.

 

Higher Education now costing upwards of £30,000 and climbing, student debt being handed to private debt collection agents. Schools now in line for cuts.

Lack of teachers, lack of doctors, lack of nurses, lack of prison officers. Lack of skilled workers in many areas. Insecurity.

 

Divisions in society and demonisation of certain groups, like immigrants, unemployed (skivers) disabled (malingerers) Old people (took all the money.)

Religions, cultures, Brexiteers and Remainers. Rich and poor. Wars. Pollution, Fukashima radiation, Donald Trump, Boris Johnson, Hilary Clinton, Putin, Kim Jon Il.....

l

Shock at extent of widespread Child abuse.

 

Biggest Debt in history with no possibility of repaying it. Banks no longer secure, No interest on savings but massive bonuses for bankers, Another banking crisis looming. No confidence in politicians, no confidence in the Establishment. Distaste for many in powerful positions.

 

Depression, lack of hope, futility. And if you hadn't got the message, an overall feeling of fear and insecurity. And it's been building since the 2008 financial crisis. Remember there's a generation of young people ready to vote who won't even remember 2008. So it's nothing to do with Brexit, although Brexit may well be the result. However I suspect Brexit will be blamed in the future, for our decline.

 

Is that enough for you? That's why I think we are living in the worst of times since the war. Well you did ask. No doubt you will disagree.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Anna B

[Obelix]

 

OK. If you insist.

 

 

I've snipped your entire quote because it was a scattergun approach - of which a quick flick through showed three outright fibs on your part, and not ONE part of it addressed the original point which was - in your words...

 

the super rich will continue to avoid taxes and get even richer. They are the power behind the throne, and set to become even more powerful.

 

If you could address the top one, I'll answer that and then go through your other list on a one by one basis.

[ECCOnoob]

A generic and unevidenced rant is hardly a substantial response Anna. Nor is your lack of any actual practical action YOU would take to fix it.

 

Half the stuff you mention is OPINION not fact.

 

Who says that high earners people dont deserve their salaries and bonuses?

Some dont but plenty do. Plenty work extremely hard for their position and have responsibility and stresses that others wouldn't understand in a million years.

 

You make your own way in this world. Dont like your job? Dont like your salary? - go do something else. Find better one. Study for advancement. Retrain. You are never going to have a society where everyone is equal - life and the universe is not like that.

 

Face facts, Some are just lucky. Some are unlucky and are struck with illness or disability through no fault of their own. Some land from the stork with a silver spoon jammed up their backside never having to graft a day in thieir lives. Others make good and earn lots of money working up from shop floor to boardroom after years of hard graft. Some prefer not to take those steps, prefering the easier option in lower skilled, lower paid work. Some others spend their lives doing nothing and waiting for the state to pick up the tab for them.

 

Who says that there is a genuine need for all these food banks?

Just because the clearly biased Tussell Trust provides some statistics does not make it an unchallengeable fact. I would argue that compared to 20-30 years ago there never been such an abundence, choice and stock of high volume high discount food and household goods. Truckloads pouring into the vast warehouses called Tesco et al with so much of it so cheap that tonnes are thrown away from said warehouses and even our own cupboards. Would make those frugal housewives of the 50s and 60s shudder if they could see the excess, greed and wastage of a modern day consumer.

 

Stop taking everything at face value all the time. Just because people CHOOSE use a food bank does not necessarilly mean that they HAVE to.

 

Who says that all these poor people stuggling to pay the mortgage and rent GENUINELY cannot afford to pay. Perhaps if we had the full picture we would see what the real problem is. What exactly are they spending their money on? What sort of place are they living? Is such place beyond their means? Is such place excessively large? Are they trying to keep up the Jones? Are they by their own fault evicted from accommodation? Have they been offered help but refused? Do they have drug or alcohol issues which restrict themselves from somewhere to live?

 

As "Tent City" and the embarrassing actions of Anthony Cunningham has proven twice now SOME people dont want to be helped even when offered. Its not as back and white as simply blaming those "nasty tories".

 

As for the public sector and welfare state, what is your solution? Like it or not, cuts have to be made. If you really cannot see that, you really need to take the rose tinted glasses off. People are living longer. That is a fact. Perhaps we the people need to start making their own provisions for old age rather than expecting the government to do it for us all the time. Despite what people demand there is simply not enough money going in and far too many people taking too much out. Hardly rocket science to see what the problem is here. I have seen my tax return note. I have seen how much my reasonable salary tax/NI (in many people's eyes) personally contributes to lets say health or education or defence budgets Have a look next time its come through. You will be as surprised as I was to see that it bearly would cover the cost of an few scans or a overnight medical examination and nurse care

 

Of course retirement age is increasing. If people are living longer, what do you expect? You dont seriously think that the net effect of longer life would be a longer state funded retirement did you? Work expectancy is bound to increase with it. Stands to reason.

 

I would agree with you that many of the sectors cut are having some impact but something has to give. I repeat again that this goes beyond merely pointing the finger at the nasty tories for the society problems. How about PEOPLE take responsibility for thier actions. How about PEOPLE start making provisions. How about the Labour opposition government actually face up to their own and the wider problems instead of acting like a bunch of petulant children everytime someone dares to criticise them or instantly and snidely countering anything the government suggests regardless of whether it was actually the right thing to do.

 

Sometimes a government has to make unpopular decisions which cause upset because it is just the right thing that has to be done. If a diseased patient doesnt want to lose an arm but a doctor knows it has to go to save their life what would the option be.

 

As for student loans and massive debts, well perhaps if precious labour had not opened up universities as a free for all to every tom dick and harry regardless of any accademic skills or meritorious career path then maybe the funding would not be in such crisis.

 

Free university should not be some automatic right to every single 18-22 year old as if its some expected right of passage.

 

Fact is, most sensible degress put people into a better position than they would be without - Why the hell shouldn't people pay for their higher education given to them at great expense. Its the foundation for a better career. Its provided by one of the most open and accessible loan systems that ANYONE could ask for. You name me any other credit system where no matter what their background or income someone can access the funds and paid back at a capped rate suspended and/or written off for those who fall below a certain income bracket afterwards.

 

Who says bexit is our decline? Again, that's OPINION not fact. Nobody knows what will happen. Despite being a remainer myself we are a democracy. The people have spoken. We now have to leave on best terms.

 

There will always be devisions in society. You are making out like this is some new concept for goodness sake. Come out of your bubble. Racial tension, income gaps, young vs old, fear, insecurity, lack of trust in establishment are just part of human life. Its been going since the dawn of time and is not going to stop.

 

Stop making out like this is a one party issue and lets get back to the topic in hand on this tread.

 

Corbyn is killing the labour party. He is a deluded and spiteful individual who puts his own ego and close group of deciples ahead of the greater good.

 

He cannot take criticism. He cannot admit when he is wrong. He has no clear direction and no leadership.

 

He makes an embarrassment of himself and the party on a weekly basis and whenever he is faced with a challenge, retreats to the protective bubble of his yes men and party members whining about biased press and unfair treatment.

 

He bangs on about membership and refuses to understand that they are not giving the feelings of the wider voting population. Even so called left wing papers show polls of labour tanking.

 

Anyone else in such position would have gone long ago.

 

Based on the 2015 total voter numbers Labours current "impressive" membership of 500k makes up just 1.7 per cent of the electorate.

 

They are not the majority. Corbyn needs to convince the remaining 98.3% of the electorate. So far he is making a complete horlicks of it.

Edited February 28, 2017 by ECCOnoob

[Anna B]

OK, I admit it was a late night rant.

I'll get back to it later. I have things to do.

A quick squint through your replies looks like I'll have a lot to say. I'm quite happy to defend my point of view.

 

Oh and I forgot one: Justice is no longer available to the ordinary man. It's too expensive.

[unbeliever]

A generic and unevidenced rant is hardly a substantial response Anna. Nor is your lack of any actual practical action YOU would take to fix it.

 

Half the stuff you mention is OPINION not fact.

 

Who says that high earners people dont deserve their salaries and bonuses?

Some dont but plenty do. Plenty work extremely hard for their position and have responsibility and stresses that others wouldn't understand in a million years.

 

You make your own way in this world. Dont like your job? Dont like your salary? - go do something else. Find better one. Study for advancement. Retrain. You are never going to have a society where everyone is equal - life and the universe is not like that.

 

Face facts, Some are just lucky. Some are unlucky and are struck with illness or disability through no fault of their own. Some land from the stork with a silver spoon jammed up their backside never having to graft a day in thieir lives. Others make good and earn lots of money working up from shop floor to boardroom after years of hard graft. Some prefer not to take those steps, prefering the easier option in lower skilled, lower paid work. Some others spend their lives doing nothing and waiting for the state to pick up the tab for them.

 

Who says that there is a genuine need for all these food banks?

Just because the clearly biased Tussell Trust provides some statistics does not make it an unchallengeable fact. I would argue that compared to 20-30 years ago there never been such an abundence, choice and stock of high volume high discount food and household goods. Truckloads pouring into the vast warehouses called Tesco et al with so much of it so cheap that tonnes are thrown away from said warehouses and even our own cupboards. Would make those frugal housewives of the 50s and 60s shudder if they could see the excess, greed and wastage of a modern day consumer.

 

Stop taking everything at face value all the time. Just because people CHOOSE use a food bank does not necessarilly mean that they HAVE to.

 

Who says that all these poor people stuggling to pay the mortgage and rent GENUINELY cannot afford to pay. Perhaps if we had the full picture we would see what the real problem is. What exactly are they spending their money on? What sort of place are they living? Is such place beyond their means? Is such place excessively large? Are they trying to keep up the Jones? Are they by their own fault evicted from accommodation? Have they been offered help but refused? Do they have drug or alcohol issues which restrict themselves from somewhere to live?

 

As "Tent City" and the embarrassing actions of Anthony Cunningham has proven twice now SOME people dont want to be helped even when offered. Its not as back and white as simply blaming those "nasty tories".

 

As for the public sector and welfare state, what is your solution? Like it or not, cuts have to be made. If you really cannot see that, you really need to take the rose tinted glasses off. People are living longer. That is a fact. Perhaps we the people need to start making their own provisions for old age rather than expecting the government to do it for us all the time. Despite what people demand there is simply not enough money going in and far too many people taking too much out. Hardly rocket science to see what the problem is here. I have seen my tax return note. I have seen how much my reasonable salary tax/NI (in many people's eyes) personally contributes to lets say health or education or defence budgets Have a look next time its come through. You will be as surprised as I was to see that it bearly would cover the cost of an few scans or a overnight medical examination and nurse care

 

Of course retirement age is increasing. If people are living longer, what do you expect? You dont seriously think that the net effect of longer life would be a longer state funded retirement did you? Work expectancy is bound to increase with it. Stands to reason.

 

I would agree with you that many of the sectors cut are having some impact but something has to give. I repeat again that this goes beyond merely pointing the finger at the nasty tories for the society problems. How about PEOPLE take responsibility for thier actions. How about PEOPLE start making provisions. How about the Labour opposition government actually face up to their own and the wider problems instead of acting like a bunch of petulant children everytime someone dares to criticise them or instantly and snidely countering anything the government suggests regardless of whether it was actually the right thing to do.

 

Sometimes a government has to make unpopular decisions which cause upset because it is just the right thing that has to be done. If a diseased patient doesnt want to lose an arm but a doctor knows it has to go to save their life what would the option be.

 

As for student loans and massive debts, well perhaps if precious labour had not opened up universities as a free for all to every tom dick and harry regardless of any accademic skills or meritorious career path then maybe the funding would not be in such crisis.

 

Free university should not be some automatic right to every single 18-22 year old as if its some expected right of passage.

 

Fact is, most sensible degress put people into a better position than they would be without - Why the hell shouldn't people pay for their higher education given to them at great expense. Its the foundation for a better career. Its provided by one of the most open and accessible loan systems that ANYONE could ask for. You name me any other credit system where no matter what their background or income someone can access the funds and paid back at a capped rate suspended and/or written off for those who fall below a certain income bracket afterwards.

 

Who says bexit is our decline? Again, that's OPINION not fact. Nobody knows what will happen. Despite being a remainer myself we are a democracy. The people have spoken. We now have to leave on best terms.

 

There will always be devisions in society. You are making out like this is some new concept for goodness sake. Come out of your bubble. Racial tension, income gaps, young vs old, fear, insecurity, lack of trust in establishment are just part of human life. Its been going since the dawn of time and is not going to stop.

 

Stop making out like this is a one party issue and lets get back to the topic in hand on this tread.

 

Corbyn is killing the labour party. He is a deluded and spiteful individual who puts his own ego and close group of deciples ahead of the greater good.

 

He cannot take criticism. He cannot admit when he is wrong. He has no clear direction and no leadership.

 

He makes an embarrassment of himself and the party on a weekly basis and whenever he is faced with a challenge, retreats to the protective bubble of his yes men and party members whining about biased press and unfair treatment.

 

He bangs on about membership and refuses to understand that they are not giving the feelings of the wider voting population. Even so called left wing papers show polls of labour tanking.

 

Anyone else in such position would have gone long ago.

 

Based on the 2015 total voter numbers Labours current "impressive" membership of 500k makes up just 1.7 per cent of the electorate.

 

They are not the majority. Corbyn needs to convince the remaining 98.3% of the electorate. So far he is making a complete horlicks of it.

 

 

Can I vote for you next election?

[alchresearch]

I'm quite happy to defend my point of view.

 

Just make sure you back it up with evidence, otherwise its just an ill-informed rant.

[Manlinose]

Sorry if this has already been said, but the Labour party don't get rid of electorally unpopular leaders.

 

They let them lose an election and hope they'll do the honourable thing and resign/retire.

 

I can remember Tony Benn challenging Neil Kinnock in the 80's, but challenges to incumbent leaders are very few and far between

 

Jeremy Corbyn isn't killing the Labour Party, although his supporters are doing their best, but they have killed it's chances of forming a Government in the near and middle future.

 

I am, and always have been, a firm believer that opposition's rarely win elections. In most cases it is the Government that loses them, but I am struggling to think of how badly this government must do before the electorate will turn to Corbyn's Labour party

[alchresearch]

An Ipsos Mori poll has suggested that half of Labour supporters are dissatisfied with Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

 

/1/"]ipsos mori poll

 

and the latest candidates for leader:

 

The four people who could be Labour’s next leader

 

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/four-people-labours-next-leader/