The end of the Labour party

[Jacktari]

You see I ask a perfectly reasonable question and all you come back with is abuse.

 

Did economists cause it? you know the people who study these things? Or was it just perhaps some wayward bankers?

 

I was actually being nice to you.

It must be my northern grittiness coming through.

[hackey lad]

I wouldn't rely too much on a Poll about the working class vote conducted by the Tory supporting Times newspaper

 

I think Corbyn and the current leadership should stick to their guns, go to the country with their programme and not become Tory or UKIP lite just to chase votes. I appreciate people will say whats the point of having principles if you're not in power.

 

Labour is hardly "finished" if it is the largest Party in Western Europe and currently the main opposition.

A question on BBC QT. last night asked who represented the working class if not Labour, no one in the audience had a suggestion. The panel predictably claimed their own party did. The Tories, led by Public School educated MPs (usually Eton), yeah right, although I will give Justin Greening credit, and UKIP who failed to win in " Brexit Central" . If any party is "finished" it's UKIP, Nuttall as leader, come on.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2017 at 09:08 ----------

 

 

 

"Vile creature" Helpful language

 

shes used worse language than that

[Anna B]

Yes, I think Labour would have won in 1997 under John Smith. Bear in mind that it's often Governments that lose elections as much as oppositions win them.

At the time the Tories were riven with divisions over Europe, mired in allegations of sleaze (sexual and financial), laughed at by the press, and had been in power for 18 years.

I do think under Smith there wouldn't have been an Iraq war (which still haunts the party to this day). And although Smith was traditionally on the right of the party, many of the policies associated with Blair would possibly not have been pursued, and the way that Blair and his allies carried out their politics turned people off.

A big part of me thinks that the election of Corbyn to the leadership of the Labour Party is a reaction to the Blair years, and all that they represented.

In many ways Corbyn is a decent man, and I don't think it's so much that his left wing views aren't popular (rail nationalisation is popular with the public); I think it's moret hat he's not seen as credible or competent.[/QUOTE]

 

The media have seen to that.

 

Do you honestly think that the majority of politicians are credible or competent? At least Corbyn is seen as decent and honest.

[Robin-H]

The media have seen to that.

 

Do you honestly think that the majority of politicians are credible or competent? At least Corbyn is seen as decent and honest.

 

I don't think Corbyn came across as particularly honest when he lied about not being able to find a seat on a train and having to sit on the floor.

[area 51]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Somehow the Tories are managing to walk that line, but Labour have a big problem in that the 'working classes' are such a diverse group that it's always going to be hard to find some policies that sit well with all of them. I do also think that perhaps people like me, i.e. champagne socialists!, are a part of the problem. At the moment I think a lot of people are put off voting for Corbyn because they see middle class people supporting him and almost assume that he can't be for them. I hope that makes some sense. To be honest, I'm not even certain Corbyn is a good fit for Labour, nearly all of his policies now align with the Greens and perhaps it would have been better if Labour had split, with the more left wing half joining the Greens and the more right wing half forming their own party? At moment we have the Tories and then almost nothing. Any government without opposition is dangerous.

 

I struggle to decide who the Labour party stands for anymore,i used to think they were for the working class but i gave up on that many years ago.Some of their policies i agree with and some policies i am strongly against.I look at all the major parties and i cannot see that any of them represent me.With all due respect to yourself it was champagne socialists that turned me away from the Labour party,i believe that the Labour party cannot be a party for everybody.It needs to decide were it wants to be and who it wants to represent,at the moment it trys to be left,right and centre.The tories appear to have chosen their direction which seems to be to the right again.They may never get my vote back but i am one of those they need to get back if they ever want to get into power again.I want a leader to the left but not as far as jeremy corbyn and not as right as blair and brown and to be more of an authoritarian rather than a liberal.Tony Blairs government was a big let down for me,i cannot forgive the Labour party for that.

[the_bloke]

Either way, why is it they always seem to go to anyone but Corbyn on the primetime news and current affairs programmes, baring in mind how often Cameron and Ed Milliband used to appear in these slots,

 

Presumably they go via one of the various press/PR contacts at Labour HQ who then see who is available, wants to do it or rejects the request as it isn't suitable. They don't just drop an email to Jeremy asking if he'd like to be on TV in a week.

[Mister M]

Yes, I think Labour would have won in 1997 under John Smith. Bear in mind that it's often Governments that lose elections as much as oppositions win them.

At the time the Tories were riven with divisions over Europe, mired in allegations of sleaze (sexual and financial), laughed at by the press, and had been in power for 18 years.

I do think under Smith there wouldn't have been an Iraq war (which still haunts the party to this day). And although Smith was traditionally on the right of the party, many of the policies associated with Blair would possibly not have been pursued, and the way that Blair and his allies carried out their politics turned people off.

A big part of me thinks that the election of Corbyn to the leadership of the Labour Party is a reaction to the Blair years, and all that they represented.

In many ways Corbyn is a decent man, and I don't think it's so much that his left wing views aren't popular (rail nationalisation is popular with the public); I think it's moret hat he's not seen as credible or competent.[/QUOTE]

 

The media have seen to that.

 

Do you honestly think that the majority of politicians are credible or competent? At least Corbyn is seen as decent and honest.

 

There are degrees of credibility and competence, and unfortunately for Corbyn there are a number of factors weighing against him. Chiefly that he is sometimes at odds with policies of his own party (e.g. Trident). He is often at odds with members of his own backbenchers (when he was on the backbenches, he was a permanent oppositionist to the leadership). He is testy and irritable with many parts of the media, who I agree aren't giving him a fair hearing, but who he should at least be professional with.

I think there is probably an in built bias among the media against anyone who has views that are considered to the left of the 'Overton Window', and that is unfortunate....But the paradox is that after the financial crash of 2008, when there was a crisis at the heart of the economic system in many Western countries, logically one would expect social democratic parties across Europe to do well, yet many of the electorate in those countries have moved rightwards. Exactly why this is, I don't know.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2017 at 21:58 ----------

 

I struggle to decide who the Labour party stands for anymore,i used to think they were for the working class but i gave up on that many years ago.Some of their policies i agree with and some policies i am strongly against.I look at all the major parties and i cannot see that any of them represent me.With all due respect to yourself it was champagne socialists that turned me away from the Labour party,i believe that the Labour party cannot be a party for everybody.It needs to decide were it wants to be and who it wants to represent,at the moment it trys to be left,right and centre.The tories appear to have chosen their direction which seems to be to the right again.They may never get my vote back but i am one of those they need to get back if they ever want to get into power again.I want a leader to the left but not as far as jeremy corbyn and not as right as blair and brown and to be more of an authoritarian rather than a liberal.Tony Blairs government was a big let down for me,i cannot forgive the Labour party for that.

 

That's interesting, you're saying that the Labour Party cannot be a party for everyone, (and I accept that from any Government there will be winners and losers). However that never seems to be a problem for the Conservatives. Indeed when Theresa May said that she wanted to govern for the whole country on the doors of 10 Downing Street, many in the press congratulated her for being inclusive.

I also take the point about 'champagne socialists', but I do think that is oversold way too much. All political parties have to pull support from everywhere they can. Historically and presently, both Conservatives and Labour have. The vitriol against champagne socialists is way more pronounced than 'cloth cap Tories', who never seem to get mentioned, let alone lampooned in the press.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Mister M

[area 51]

 

There are degrees of credibility and competence, and unfortunately for Corbyn there are a number of factors weighing against him. Chiefly that he is sometimes at odds with policies of his own party (e.g. Trident). He is often at odds with members of his own backbenchers (when he was on the backbenches, he was a permanent oppositionist to the leadership). He is testy and irritable with many parts of the media, who I agree aren't giving him a fair hearing, but who he should at least be professional with.

I think there is probably an in built bias among the media against anyone who has views that are considered to the left of the 'Overton Window', and that is unfortunate....But the paradox is that after the financial crash of 2008, when there was a crisis at the heart of the economic system in many Western countries, logically one would expect social democratic parties across Europe to do well, yet many of the electorate in those countries have moved rightwards. Exactly why this is, I don't know.

 

---------- Post added 24-02-2017 at 21:58 ----------

 

 

That's interesting, you're saying that the Labour Party cannot be a party for everyone, (and I accept that from any Government there will be winners and losers). However that never seems to be a problem for the Conservatives. Indeed when Theresa May said that she wanted to govern for the whole country on the doors of 10 Downing Street, many in the press congratulated her for being inclusive.

I also take the point about 'champagne socialists', but I do think that is oversold way too much. All political parties have to pull support from everywhere they can. Historically and presently, both Conservatives and Labour have. The vitriol against champagne socialists is way more pronounced than 'cloth cap Tories', who never seem to get mentioned, let alone lampooned in the press.

 

I can only judge the Labour party on my own experiences,i have never voted tory and celebrated when Labour won in 1997 and expected my life to be much improved.I was some what surprised when four years into blairs government i found my fortunes and finances going in the opposite direction.How could this be, i voted in a labour government as a working class lad i should be better off.I was actually taking less wages home every month than i had under the tory government.Shock horror and shame i actually started missing Maggie Thatchers government.I wasn't the only one that this happened too has the desertion of the working class from the Labour party has shown this to be true.I am not sure who the cloth cap tory mps are to be honest.Seeing as south yorkshire is tory free as far as i know in regards to mp's it is hard to say who the cloth cap tories are.You never see tories protesting in the street but i see champagne socialists protesting all the time so it makes them more prominent in the public eye.

[Jim Hardie]

I don't understand the poll. The question is 'Where will Labour be a year from now?'

The first option is 'Intact with Jeremy Corbyn in charge.'

Another is 'The matter will still be unresolved.'

a) What matter?

b) What is the difference?

[Mister M]

 

I can only judge the Labour party on my own experiences,i have never voted tory and celebrated when Labour won in 1997 and expected my life to be much improved.I was some what surprised when four years into blairs government i found my fortunes and finances going in the opposite direction.How could this be, i voted in a labour government as a working class lad i should be better off.I was actually taking less wages home every month than i had under the tory government.Shock horror and shame i actually started missing Maggie Thatchers government.I wasn't the only one that this happened too has the desertion of the working class from the Labour party has shown this to be true.I am not sure who the cloth cap tory mps are to be honest.Seeing as south yorkshire is tory free as far as i know in regards to mp's it is hard to say who the cloth cap tories are.You never see tories protesting in the street but i see champagne socialists protesting all the time so it makes them more prominent in the public eye.

 

I think you misread my post, I wasn't referring to 'cloth cap Tory MPs'. I was responding to your complaint about the champagne socialists as one of the reasons you said you left the Labour Party. I responded by saying that all political parties pull support from everywhere - there are champagne socialists for Labour and cloth cap Tories for the Conservatives.

 

Plenty of people protest a lot of the time, and without seeing a party flag, or a banner I don't know who they vote for. The recent issues of fracking, and HS2, and the expansion of Heathrow for example, brought many Tories out of their houses and caused them to demonstrate. Good for them I say.