Mrs May, Hero of the Brexiters.

[Zamo]

Your logic for that is pretty tenuous though. You've assumed that the 40% who want a second referendum minus the 12% who voted leave in that group are remainers and assumed everyone else is in favour of leaving. If anyone had suggested that only the 44% who said they didn't want another referendum still wanted to leave you'd have called them out on it.

 

Your numbers and logic are muddled.

 

According to the poll 60% of people do not want another referendum on the terms of exit i.e. happy to just exit as per the referendum. 40% said they wanted a vote on the terms of exit and amongst them are obviously people who want to try and undo the outcome of the referendum... including anyone who voted to leave and now want to stay. But we need to remember that the 40% is how many want a further say on the terms of exit and that will also include people who voted to leave, still want to leave and just want a say on the terms as per the question! Therefore 40% is not the number wanting to undo the referendum result... that number must be less than 40%. The number of people opposed to leaving (oat least bothered enough about it to want another vote to try and stop it) is therefore closer to just one third of the population.

 

What the Indy did was to twist and muddle data to paint the picture they want to see. Once they had asked people if they want a vote on the terms they obviously then asked how they voted at the referendum. From this they were able to calculate that 12% of those who voted to leave also want a vote on the terms of exit. All fine so far but rather than just leave it at that they instead hypothesise. They hypothesised that this could be signs of second thoughts by leavers. And if one in eight leavers are having second thoughts then perhaps most people want to now stay... after all it was only 52-48 in the referendum. At the very least, they surmise, it is still neck and next and as a result 'the country is deeply divided about the outcome of last month’s vote'. Rubbish. Firstly, they have no idea how many leavers have changed their minds because they didn't ask the question. And secondly they ignore their own poll which indicated it is people who voted to stay that have changed their minds! Their own poll data tells us it is now at least 6-4 in favour of leaving and probably closer to 2-1.

 

Given that most governments are elected with only a tiny percentage of the population having voted for them, I would say that the country is pretty united on the issue... the vast majority want out. The yappy stay brigade just don't want to see it.

[Santo]

Yes , she could keep putting it off but doubtful if she'd get away with it.

As for hardline Tories, it wasn't just them who wanted brexit as could be seen in the voting in some safe Labour seats, where the arrogance of Labour to assume that the voters would do as they were told was ignored.

People like me who have voted Labour since the mid sixties til Gordon Brown was made PM then switched to voting UKIP after being fed up of being taken for granted by the main parties.

As things stand at the moment I wouldn't be voting UKIP again as I see them as a one policy party. But of course that could change.

 

I see Article 50 and Brexit like a bomb. It's not counting down at present but if you touch it you light the fuse and the countdown starts. You have to look at but not touch the bomb very carefully to figure out how to disarm it. Then, when you know what you are going to do you can get to work. The countdown starts and you have two years to make it safe. Or it goes bang. Would you touch it straight off the bat? Would you want people that don't know about bombs shouting cut the green wire or cut the red wire, flapping around you the whole time you are concentrating?

 

---------- Post added 01-09-2016 at 16:05 ----------

 

Your numbers and logic are muddled.

 

According to the poll 60% of people do not want another referendum on the terms of exit i.e. happy to just exit as per the referendum. 40% said they wanted a vote on the terms of exit and amongst them are obviously people who want to try and undo the outcome of the referendum... including anyone who voted to leave and now want to stay. But we need to remember that the 40% is how many want a further say on the terms of exit and that will also include people who voted to leave, still want to leave and just want a say on the terms as per the question! Therefore 40% is not the number wanting to undo the referendum result... that number must be less than 40%. The number of people opposed to leaving (oat least bothered enough about it to want another vote to try and stop it) is therefore closer to just one third of the population.

 

What the Indy did was to twist and muddle data to paint the picture they want to see. Once they had asked people if they want a vote on the terms they obviously then asked how they voted at the referendum. From this they were able to calculate that 12% of those who voted to leave also want a vote on the terms of exit. All fine so far but rather than just leave it at that they instead hypothesise. They hypothesised that this could be signs of second thoughts by leavers. And if one in eight leavers are having second thoughts then perhaps most people want to now stay... after all it was only 52-48 in the referendum. At the very least, they surmise, it is still neck and next and as a result 'the country is deeply divided about the outcome of last month’s vote'. Rubbish. Firstly, they have no idea how many leavers have changed their minds because they didn't ask the question. And secondly they ignore their own poll which indicated it is people who voted to stay that have changed their minds! Their own poll data tells us it is now at least 6-4 in favour of leaving and probably closer to 2-1.

 

Given that most governments are elected with only a tiny percentage of the population having voted for them, I would say that the country is pretty united on the issue... the vast majority want out. The yappy stay brigade just don't want to see it.

 

A tiny percentage you say? More than 11m people voted Tory in 2015. That is not a tiny percentage of the electorate. 13.5m voted Labour in 97. That is even more not a tiny percentage.

 

I think you are muddling like you claim the Indy is. Oh the irony.

 

What you could have said is that the party that wins elections isn't actually voted for by most of the people but hey ho that's how our system works and the yappy it's not fair UKIP got more votes than the SNP but fewer MPs brigade will just have to lump it.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Santo

[altus]

Your numbers and logic are muddled.

 

According to the poll 60% of people do not want another referendum on the terms of exit i.e. happy to just exit as per the referendum. 40% said they wanted a vote on the terms of exit and amongst them are obviously people who want to try and undo the outcome of the referendum... including anyone who voted to leave and now want to stay. But we need to remember that the 40% is how many want a further say on the terms of exit and that will also include people who voted to leave, still want to leave and just want a say on the terms as per the question! Therefore 40% is not the number wanting to undo the referendum result... that number must be less than 40%. The number of people opposed to leaving (oat least bothered enough about it to want another vote to try and stop it) is therefore closer to just one third of the population.

They only asked "Do you want a referendum on the terms?" not "Are you now in favour of leaving?". The poll doesn't support your claim that answering "I don't want a referendum on the terms" equals "I'm now in favour of leaving".

 

Given that most governments are elected with only a tiny percentage of the population having voted for them, I would say that the country is pretty united on the issue... the vast majority want out. The yappy stay brigade just don't want to see it.

For what it's worth, much as I'd like us to remain in the EU, I think we will be leaving. The issue now is what the terms will be.

[BHRemovals]

So brexit means brexit does it well lets see. I don't belive we will come out of the single market, consequently this means free movement of labour. So we will be excluded from the ECHR, we will lose our entitlement to 4 weeks holiday, all European consumer protection and we will now have to pay to be in the single market. Yes we are coming out, but there will be just as much immigration.

[Zamo]

They only asked "Do you want a referendum on the terms?" not "Are you now in favour of leaving?". The poll doesn't support your claim that answering "I don't want a referendum on the terms" equals "I'm now in favour of leaving".

 

That's right, they didn't ask people whether they had voted to stay or leave at the referendum and whether they have now changed their minds. They asked if they wanted a referendum to approve or reject the terms of exit and then proceeded to hypothesise about the motivation for Leavers wanting such a referendum i.e. it's because they've changed their minds. They effectively twisted the stats to make up a story to suit their agenda because 'Vast majority don't want second referendum' just didn't fit.

 

If they want to know how people would now vote all they needed to do was ask them... wonder why they didn't?

[the_bloke]

So brexit means brexit does it well lets see. I don't belive we will come out of the single market, consequently this means free movement of labour. So we will be excluded from the ECHR, we will lose our entitlement to 4 weeks holiday, all European consumer protection and we will now have to pay to be in the single market. Yes we are coming out, but there will be just as much immigration.

 

I keep hearing things like this, and sorry, but it's scaremongering. UK holiday terms is set in UK law, and is already beyond that defined as a minimum of EU law. Lots of EU laws were made into specific UK laws or our existing UK laws were updated to match any extra requirements of the equivalent EU law. Leaving the EU does not mean those laws also become defunct, unless they are also repealed which no one has said will happen.

 

The issue are the smaller policies and laws that have been applied across the EU that are not part of UK law, but as part and parcel of the EU we also apply those policies in the UK. These are nearly all entirely centered around production, regulation and trade of products. A lot of these don't even have relevance in the UK, which is why they haven't been incorporated into UK law, but the ones that do have relevance will need to be incorporated into UK law before the UK leaves the EU. These little ones are tucked away in thousands and thousands of pages of EU policy and these are the ones that will cause some headaches to identify and push through parliament.

 

The whole 'we shall lose our workers rights' stuff is bobbins frankly.

 

As is the idea that the European Court of Human Rights will no longer have powers for the UK, as it and our recognition of it, existed before the EU did. So leaving the EU has no impact on that either. If you think we'll no longer have any 'human rights' in the UK following Brexit, then perhaps you don't know of the existence of the 1998 Human Rights Act.

Edited September 1, 2016 by the_bloke

[NigelFargate]

No you don't know.

 

You have no idea if you think I'm merely very cross.

 

I'm way beyond very cross.

 

I'm f****** incandescent that you think you have the right to lie and strip me of my citizenship. I'm outraged you think it's perfectly OK to leave hundreds of thousands of EU nationals and expats in limbo in the the UK and overseas whilst you decide what you actually mean by Brexit.

 

I'm livid that you think it's acceptable to take all that was built in the last 40 odd years and spaff it away just because you don't want other people making big decisions. Too European for you I can only presume. I'm saddened beyond reason that people thought it was OK to protest vote by voting to leave thinking that it would never happen.

 

I'm outraged that lies are still being told as evidenced by your insinuation there should be a world war by now and stunned by your proffering of a newspaper article where Cameron never said world war, and never said any conflict would certainly happen.

 

I'm desolate that the Europe I grew up will potentially be closed off to me forever when I have done nothing wrong, due to the narrow mindedness of my countrymen. I'm fiercely ashamed and disgusted that those countrymen feel that the Human rights that Britain fought for and upheld are now too inconvenient and only fit to be trampled into the dirt of history.

 

Finally I'm incoherently annoyed by that smug grinning k*** called Farage and would really like to punch him square on that big nose of his. But that is the only emotion I an ashamed of.

 

Finally I'm utterly amazed that you can think that I am only "very cross" about this matter. My feelings on this go way beyond being simply cross.

 

---------- Post added 01-09-2016 at 14:12 ----------

 

 

It's fictional. It doesn't exist. Boris the Gibbon and Pob have said as much.

 

One would need to have a heart of stone not to burst out laughing on reading this post

[pmurtdlanod1]

No you don't know.

 

You have no idea if you think I'm merely very cross.

 

I'm way beyond very cross.

 

I'm f****** incandescent that you think you have the right to lie and strip me of my citizenship. I'm outraged you think it's perfectly OK to leave hundreds of thousands of EU nationals and expats in limbo in the the UK and overseas whilst you decide what you actually mean by Brexit.

 

I'm livid that you think it's acceptable to take all that was built in the last 40 odd years and spaff it away just because you don't want other people making big decisions. Too European for you I can only presume. I'm saddened beyond reason that people thought it was OK to protest vote by voting to leave thinking that it would never happen.

 

I'm outraged that lies are still being told as evidenced by your insinuation there should be a world war by now and stunned by your proffering of a newspaper article where Cameron never said world war, and never said any conflict would certainly happen.

 

I'm desolate that the Europe I grew up will potentially be closed off to me forever when I have done nothing wrong, due to the narrow mindedness of my countrymen. I'm fiercely ashamed and disgusted that those countrymen feel that the Human rights that Britain fought for and upheld are now too inconvenient and only fit to be trampled into the dirt of history.

 

Finally I'm incoherently annoyed by that smug grinning k*** called Farage and would really like to punch him square on that big nose of his. But that is the only emotion I an ashamed of.

 

Finally I'm utterly amazed that you can think that I am only "very cross" about this matter. My feelings on this go way beyond being simply cross.

 

---------- Post added 01-09-2016 at 14:12 ----------

 

calm down dear its only Brexit:hihi:

[Brian Equato]

No you don't know.

 

You have no idea if you think I'm merely very cross.

 

I'm way beyond very cross.

 

I'm f****** incandescent that you think you have the right to lie and strip me of my citizenship. I'm outraged you think it's perfectly OK to leave hundreds of thousands of EU nationals and expats in limbo in the the UK and overseas whilst you decide what you actually mean by Brexit.

 

I'm livid that you think it's acceptable to take all that was built in the last 40 odd years and spaff it away just because you don't want other people making big decisions. Too European for you I can only presume. I'm saddened beyond reason that people thought it was OK to protest vote by voting to leave thinking that it would never happen.

 

I'm outraged that lies are still being told as evidenced by your insinuation there should be a world war by now and stunned by your proffering of a newspaper article where Cameron never said world war, and never said any conflict would certainly happen.

 

I'm desolate that the Europe I grew up will potentially be closed off to me forever when I have done nothing wrong, due to the narrow mindedness of my countrymen. I'm fiercely ashamed and disgusted that those countrymen feel that the Human rights that Britain fought for and upheld are now too inconvenient and only fit to be trampled into the dirt of history.

 

Finally I'm incoherently annoyed by that smug grinning k*** called Farage and would really like to punch him square on that big nose of his. But that is the only emotion I an ashamed of.

 

Finally I'm utterly amazed that you can think that I am only "very cross" about this matter. My feelings on this go way beyond being simply cross.

 

---------- Post added 01-09-2016 at 14:12 ----------

 

calm down dear its only Brexit:hihi:

 

Pity democracy isn't just about what suits one person.

[altus]

That's right, they didn't ask people whether they had voted to stay or leave at the referendum and whether they have now changed their minds. They asked if they wanted a referendum to approve or reject the terms of exit and then proceeded to hypothesise about the motivation for Leavers wanting such a referendum i.e. it's because they've changed their minds. They effectively twisted the stats to make up a story to suit their agenda because 'Vast majority don't want second referendum' just didn't fit.

I wasn't defending their twisting of the stats to suit their agenda, I was criticizing your twisting of them to suit yours.