Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[iansheff]

Mrs May has said: All schools are to be given the right to apply to select pupils by ability under the plans. If every school applies how are they going to select who can have Grammar School status and who can't, obviously every school cannot be given it.

[Robin-H]

I'm not entirely sure. Robin might know.....

 

That is what the proposals say yes - a new grammar school will have to take a proportion of disadvantaged pupils, establish a "high quality, non-selective free school", and set up or sponsor a primary feeder school in a deprived area or sponsor an underperforming academy.

[Guest sibon]

They will be pleased that Theresa May said that there will not be a return of secondary modern schools then.

 

But they wiil. The direct corollary to the establishment of schools that select the "top" 25%, is that other schools will have to work with the other 75%. Those schools are essentially Secondary Modern schools, although I'm sure that they will be given a different branding.

 

Mrs May has said: All schools are to be given the right to apply to select pupils by ability under the plans. If every school applies how are they going to select who can have Grammar School status and who can't, obviously every school cannot be given it.

 

Even more interesting will be to see how "ability" is defined. Anyone who has ever spent any time in a schoool will know that different students have different talents, often quite marked differences.

 

One of the strengths of Comprehensive Schools is that they are able to nurture talents like that. A student who excels in Chemistry, might not be so very talented in Maths, or French. That is no problem in a Comp, you can be in Set 1 Chemistry, Set 3 Maths and Set 5 French. You can also move as your skills develop.

 

A selective system cannot offer such differentiation. So, how will the selection process deal with such an issue, if the intention of selection is to foster excellence?

[I1L2T3]

Mrs May has said: All schools are to be given the right to apply to select pupils by ability under the plans. If every school applies how are they going to select who can have Grammar School status and who can't, obviously every school cannot be given it.

 

A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down.... and provides a delightful distraction from Brexit

 

She's been watching too many repeats of Mary Poppins but then she does seem stuck in the 60s

[Staunton]

Any evidence at all?

 

Perhaps there are countries that are performing well with grammar schools/selection?

 

I requested that "if anyone believes they have evidence of how grammar schools will benefit the large majority of children not selected for such privilege, then please present it here on this thread."

 

Does anyone have any such evidence? Perhaps, as El Cid suggests, there are countries that are performing well with grammar schools/selection, but performing well at what? And how are those children in such countries who were not selected by the grammars doing?

[Bob Arctor]

That is what the proposals say yes - a new grammar school will have to take a proportion of disadvantaged pupils, establish a "high quality, non-selective free school", and set up or sponsor a primary feeder school in a deprived area or sponsor an underperforming academy.

 

A secondary modern then.

[Penistone999]

I see no problem with Grammar schools. They help the most intelligent kids prosper .

 

Why would anyone be against that ?

[*_ash_*]

I see no problem with Grammar schools. They help the most intelligent kids prosper .

 

Why would anyone be against that ?

 

because 'everyone is the same' and so everyone should be treated the same way.

[biotechpete]

OK, so I haven't checked the whole thread to see if stats have been posted but anyway...

As a guide to school performance I chose GCSE stats. The most recently available are from 2014/15 here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/revised-gcse-and-equivalent-results-in-england-2014-to-2015

 

As a measure of performance I chose 5 A*-C passes including maths and English.

 

The national average percentages are as follows:

Comprehensive Schools

56.7

 

Selective Schools

96.7

 

Modern Schools

49.7

 

All state-funded mainstream schools

58.1

 

But the comparison we really need to make is in the total attainment of local authorities which do/don't have a grammar system.

 

According to BBC/google local authorities with a selective system are Kent, Medway, Buckinghamshire and Lincolnshire, while others such as Gloucestershire, Trafford and Slough have a mix.

So bearing in mind the benchmark is 56.7%, the results for these local authorities are

Kent 57.3

Medway 57.8

Buckinghamshire 68.9

Lincolnshire 56.1

 

Gloucestershire 60.9

Trafford 70.7

Slough 67.9

 

So on the face of it, most authorities with grammars out perform the national average. But surely affluence has something to do with it. By way of comparison the regional averages for those areas are:

South East 59.9

East Midlands 54.2

South West 58.0

North West 66.0

 

So Kent and Medway under perform the region, all the others outperform their region.

 

The other comparison to make is between similar local authorities. It appears that deprivation has a large impact on educational attainment so the fair comparison would be between local authorities with similar 'extent summary measure of deprivation' or in the same decile of deprivation. Now there's a problem that the government collects that data on a district rather than county authority level. So for each educational authority you have several sets of stats (I took the average). Deprivation data are here: http://opendatacommunities.org/data/societal-wellbeing/imd/indicesbyla

 

Kent 28124

Ashford 27994

Canterbury 28067

Dartford 28472

Dover 29867

Gravesham 30401

Maidstone 27750

Sevenoaks 24266

Shepway 30534

Swale 32156

Thanet 32674

Tonbridge and Malling 23423

Tunbridge Wells 21892

 

Medway 30464

 

Bucks 19895

Aylesbury Vale 24413

Chiltern 16712

South Bucks 16930

Wycombe 21525

 

Lincs 28759

Boston 28743

East Lindsey 31694

Lincoln 32090

North East Lincs 32621

North Lincs 31014

North Kesteven 22177

South Holland 24325

South Kesteven 25926

West Lindsey 30244

 

Gloucestershire 24462

Cotswold 18478

Cheltenham 28843

Forest of Dean 25052

Gloucester 31344

Tewkesbury 23642

South Glocs 22791

Stroud 21082

 

Slough 27017

Trafford 29199

 

So searching for similar indicies and GCSE results

Kent 28124 57.3

Hounslow 27816.5 65.2

Reading 28061.2 57.5

Havering 28130.9 57.7

Cheshire East 28462 63.3

 

Medway 30464 57.8

Waltham Forest 30404.3 57.4

North Somerset 30439.1 58.8

Brent 30467.6 60.0

Enfield 30527.6 54.5

Northumberland 30554 56.9

 

Bucks 19895 68.9

Rutland 16795.1 67.2

Windsor and Maidenhead 19539.8 64.6

Bracknell Forest 20267.3 58.2

West Berkshire 20683.1 62.4

 

Lincs 28759 56.1

Bromley 28696.1 68.0

Isle of Wight 28875.4 47.6

Greenwich 29003.1 57.7

Thurrock 29008.8 52.9

 

Gloucestershire 24462 60.9

Harrow 24401.1 60.5

Wiltshire 25149.8 60.5

Bath and North East Somerset 25352.8 62.9

Central Bedfordshire 25498.5 58.3

 

Trafford 29199 70.7

Greenwich 29003.1 57.7

Thurrock 29008.8 52.9

Ealing 29338.9 62.1

East Riding of Yorkshire 29370.3 56.3

Southwark 29502.7 64.3

 

Slough 27017 67.9

Sutton 26913 70.4

Wandsworth 27081.7 58.2

Redbridge 27349.8 63.4

Barnet 27378.9 70.1

 

So I conclude from this that good schools are the answer and grammars are marginally better or the same as comprehensives.

Edited September 9, 2016 by biotechpete

[Staunton]

I see no problem with Grammar schools. They help the most intelligent kids prosper .

 

Why would anyone be against that ?

 

Perhaps Penistone999 might care to enlarge upon what the outcome might be for those children not selected for the privilege of a grammar school education?