Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[biotechpete]

It was on the BBC news last night, I can`t find the exact figures off that, and I'm short of time at the moment, I`m sure they`ll come to light. But in the, meantime here is a report on the top 200 comps v Grammars (I`d have thought the figures would be rather worse if they were for all comps and Grammars) :

 

Percentage on Free School Meals

 

Comprehensives = 6%

Grammars = 2.1%

 

It's not a fair comparison if the general affluence/deprivation of the areas is different.

[Justin Smith]

It's not a fair comparison if the general affluence/deprivation of the areas is different.

 

Sorry, I thought we were disproving the fact the Grammars were a true meritocracy, and that, basically, more children of middle class parents got in.

[Staunton]

'I sat there with the girls and boys of New End [a Primary School in Hampstead, London] and struggled through the exam. The results came through a few weeks later. I had failed. At my prep school this was made known by a teacher, and I was made to feel stupid. It hurt to feel stupid. At home there was silent disapproval, and disappointment - the worst kind. This was my first public failure, there were many more to come. My early blithe confidence had been shattered. All school-work, all tests became fearful to me. When asked to read aloud or recite a poem I stuttered. I longed only for play-time and the bell at the end of school...'

 

Michael Morpurgo, author of War Horse (1982)

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07tqpqb (from 26mins; 50 seconds)

[Santo]

Sorry, I thought we were disproving the fact the Grammars were a true meritocracy, and that, basically, more children of middle class parents got in.

 

For the top 200 schools in the survey there is a similar disparity between those at Comps receiving FSM compared to the local area and those at Grammars receiving FSM compared to the local area. About 10%.

 

According to the survey there are about 160 Grammar schools in the UK and all but 3 are in the top 200.

 

The survey is also more than 10 years old.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Santo

[biotechpete]

Sorry, I thought we were disproving the fact the Grammars were a true meritocracy, and that, basically, more children of middle class parents got in.

 

Yes, but the figures don't necessraily reflect that, because areas which retained grammar schools were inherently less deprived than the national average so in all likelihood, the secondary schools in those areas would also have a lover than average free school meal percentage

[Staunton]

Yes, but the figures don't necessraily reflect that, because areas which retained grammar schools were inherently less deprived than the national average so in all likelihood, the secondary schools in those areas would also have a lover than average free school meal percentage

 

It would appear that there is a correlation between areas of affluence and grammar schools.

[El Cid]

According to the survey there are about 160 Grammar schools in the UK and all but 3 are in the top 200.

 

The survey is also more than 10 years old.

 

Of course grammar schools perform well, they get the brightest children.

[the_bloke]

It would appear that there is a correlation between areas of affluence and grammar schools.

 

Considering that grammar school pupils come in from a much wider area than normal schools, I'm not sure how you can come to a direct comparison. A grammar school might have pupils coming in from 20 miles away, a comprehensive 5 miles at most.

 

Grammar schools do exist in towns with low wages and house prices, but it seems an unpopular fact on this thread.

[Staunton]

Considering that grammar school pupils come in from a much wider area than normal schools, I'm not sure how you can come to a direct comparison. A grammar school might have pupils coming in from 20 miles away, a comprehensive 5 miles at most.

 

Grammar schools do exist in towns with low wages and house prices, but it seems an unpopular fact on this thread.

 

I was simply drawing attention to the logical conclusion drawn from biotechpete's statement 'Yes, but the figures don't necessraily reflect that, because areas which retained grammar schools were inherently less deprived than the national average so in all likelihood, the secondary schools in those areas would also have a lover than average free school meal percentage.'

 

I wonder whether the_bloke can present any evidence to refute such a conclusion?

 

There is also a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the_bloke's own words – that the actual location of a grammar school in a town with low wages and house prices by no means indicates that the school would be accessible to the children of poorer families in that town since, as the_bloke himself points out, such schools take children from a wide geographical region.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Staunton

[the_bloke]

I was simply drawing attention to the logical conclusion drawn from biotechpete's statement 'Yes, but the figures don't necessraily reflect that, because areas which retained grammar schools were inherently less deprived than the national average so in all likelihood, the secondary schools in those areas would also have a lover than average free school meal percentage.'

 

I wonder whether the_bloke can present any evidence to refute such a conclusion?

 

Yes. Gainsborough (I cite it as an example as I used to live there) has a grammar school, where 1.5% of 1100 pupils have free school meals, in contrast the academy with 1200 pupils has 25% of pupils on free school meals.* The schools are 2 miles apart.

 

* Source; OFSTED reports

 

There is also a reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the_bloke's own words – that the actual location of a grammar school in a town with low wages and house prices by no means indicates that the school would be accessible to the children of poorer families in that town since, as the_bloke himself points out, such schools take children from a wide geographical region.

 

You'd have to know the numbers of pupils at a grammar school who live local in order to be able to prove that, as well as (what I suspect your real point is) that you think the selection process to enter a grammar school is selective according to the background of the child, and not their ability.

 

The higher the bar to get in, the less choice you'll have and the more geographically disperse they become. The same rules apply for universities and jobs.