Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[biotechpete]

Yes. Gainsborough (I cite it as an example as I used to live there) has a grammar school, where 1.5% of 1100 pupils have free school meals, in contrast the academy with 1200 pupils has 25% of pupils on free school meals.* The schools are 2 miles apart.

 

* Source; OFSTED reports

 

It's quite easy to selectively quote single schools though. I can cite the two schools I had the choice of as grammar (6.9%) and secondary (7.3%).

 

What this demonstrates of course is that I had the choice of 2 good schools. The % of pupils on free school meals is a general indicator common to all schools regardless of whether they are grammar/secondary or comprehensive. You will find most top performing comprehensive schools have low FSM %. The way the comprehensive system acts, through local catchment 'selection' is a far more regressive way to entrench the attainment gap.

Edited September 12, 2016 by biotechpete

[the_bloke]

It's quite easy to selectively quote single schools though. I can cite the two schools I had the choice of as grammar (6.9%) and secondary (7.3%).

 

What this demonstrates of course is that I had the choice of 2 good schools. The % of pupils on free school meals is a general indicator common to all schools regardless of whether they are grammar/secondary or comprehensive. You will find most top performing comprehensive schools have low FSM %. The way the comprehensive system acts, through local catchment 'selection' is a far more regressive way to entrench the attainment gap.

 

I'd imagine you could perform the comparisons across quite a lot of grammar schools (likely all of them in Lincs) and get large differences between the %ages, as well as a decent amount with similar percentages as in your case. I'm sure we're not actually proving anything apart from disproving the theory that all grammar schools are in posh areas.

 

With regards to comprehensive schools, how would you go about getting more children from 'bad' areas into 'good area' schools who would currently be prevented from doing so? You might not agree with the catchment area system, but surely it's the most straightforward than applying other quotas and restrictions on a school that is open to anyone of any ability.

[El Cid]

Considering that grammar school pupils come in from a much wider area than normal schools, I'm not sure how you can come to a direct comparison. A grammar school might have pupils coming in from 20 miles away, a comprehensive 5 miles at most.

 

Grammar schools do exist in towns with low wages and house prices, but it seems an unpopular fact on this thread.

 

I wonder if May will do what Michael Gove did - turn failing local authority schools into Academies.

Would that work, turn failing schools into Grammar schools, great idea

[Staunton]

Yes. Gainsborough (I cite it as an example as I used to live there) has a grammar school, where 1.5% of 1100 pupils have free school meals, in contrast the academy with 1200 pupils has 25% of pupils on free school meals.* The schools are 2 miles apart.

 

* Source; OFSTED reports.

 

Thanks to the_bloke's dramatic citation we can see very clearly how the grammar school in Gainsborough has succeeded in excluding and marginalising children from poorer families.

[unbeliever]

Thanks to the_bloke's dramatic citation we can see very clearly how the grammar school in Gainsborough has succeeded in excluding and marginalising children from poorer families.

 

They're selecting on ability. To a significant, but limited extent, ability is inherited. Ability is correlated with earnings. I don't see the problem.

[Staunton]

They're selecting on ability. To a significant, but limited extent, ability is inherited. Ability is correlated with earnings. I don't see the problem.

 

unbeliever seems to believe that ability is correlated with earnings, a conclusion that would add yet more weight to the argument that grammar schools are unfair, since (according to the_bloke's earlier statement) they select out poorer children.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Staunton

[syne]

They're selecting on ability. To a significant, but limited extent, ability is inherited. Ability is correlated with earnings. I don't see the problem.

 

Exactamundo! The more educated you are the more likely you'll be to promote educational importance to your kids,

The richer you are the higher the chance you'll have them tutored I'd say is also probably true.

It's not a great stretch of the imagination to conceive how an area around a grammar school would become more affluent over time,

[Staunton]

The assault on the interests of ordinary people has begun.

 

Here's what I wrote way back at Post 130.

 

Thanks to unbeliever, syne and the_bloke we have confirmation of this claim.

[biotechpete]

I'd imagine you could perform the comparisons across quite a lot of grammar schools (likely all of them in Lincs) and get large differences between the %ages, as well as a decent amount with similar percentages as in your case. I'm sure we're not actually proving anything apart from disproving the theory that all grammar schools are in posh areas.

 

With regards to comprehensive schools, how would you go about getting more children from 'bad' areas into 'good area' schools who would currently be prevented from doing so? You might not agree with the catchment area system, but surely it's the most straightforward than applying other quotas and restrictions on a school that is open to anyone of any ability.

 

I haven't personally formed a clear idea about that. Have you?

 

The real answer is that we need more good schools in all areas. But unfortunately, there is a link between poverty and poor school attainment. So inevitably there is a greater measure of that in poorer areas. And we already spend large amounts of money on education, so more money is not necessarily the answer either. I'm not sure that I am comfortable with the idea that one could 'pick winners' from poor areas to send to other schools. It sort of smacks of a deserving and undeserving poor classification. That being said, having my hypothetical child attending a school where large numbers of kids have no interest in education and a very poor attitude towards those more interested/capable than themselves is highly undesirable. Which leads me to the problem of our societal attitude to education. We have such a chip on our shoulders and a reverse snobbery towards the educated (regardless of background). Something needs to change there, and I think it needs to start with the dissolution of our adversarial parliamentary system, which IMHO feeds off stoking an artificial class war, where none exists.

 

It's not that I don't agree with the catchment system for schools either, it's just that I think it's more regressive than selection by exam. Independent schools offer scholarships to poorer families by means of entry tests. And I suppose entry by test or entry by residency are the only two options we've got.

[syne]

unbeliever seems to believe that ability is correlated with earnings, a conclusion that would add yet more weight to the argument that grammar schools are unfair, since (according to the_bloke's earlier statement) they select out poorer children.

 

It is correlated

not in a straightforward way and it's not a universal truth but it's there