Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[Santo]

No I`m not, because, as has been stated by some proponents of Grammar schools on here, so long as it`s not overwhelming failure, it`s a lesson in life that you can`t always win or get what you want. But, so long as you can succeed, or at least do a little better in some things, and you see that most people aren't top in everything, that`s what counts.

 

---------- Post added 13-09-2016 at 18:40 ----------

 

 

No, my Mum was probably right, I didn`t work hard enough !

Interesting sidelight here. My parents had to pay a top up to my student grant, yes they had them in those days. I really would rather have got a loan, I couldn`t stand the fact they reminded me they were helping to pay for me to be at Uni. I`d far rather have done it under my own steam. On the other hand, I think the amounts students are required to find these days are far too high.

 

Failing the 11+ isn't an overwhelming failure.

 

Do you think the way your own mother treated you for not getting into top sets coloured your view at all?

 

I maintain, you do use the word failure an awful lot more than others that don't like the idea of Grammar schools. Some are saying it's elitist, backward, unfair, etc. You fall back on the word failure.

 

I'm no therapist but.....well.

 

Point made.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Santo

[I1L2T3]

I don't agree, teachers are paid very well, there are progression opportunities and a fairly good work life balance if you get your finger out.

 

They should be put under pressure to perform nay excell. Complacent teachers should fear their job security if their not up to scratch

They shouldn't be taken for granted and they shouldn't pe used as a political weapon though.

 

Do you actually know any teachers?

 

If you did you wouldn't be saying half of that.

[unbeliever]

Do you actually know any teachers?

 

If you did you wouldn't be saying half of that.

 

I know lots. My parents are retired teachers. Many are conscientious and work very hard. Others do what's required of them and have a lot of free time, especially in the summer. They should be removed.

It's not a question with a simple answer.

The pay's good unless you live in the south.

[Staunton]

In this thread we have seen a dismissal of the notion that tax avoidance has any bearing on public service funding, and we have discovered that the resulting depletion of public service capacity should be made up by putting extra pressure on already overstretched public sector front line staff. And when these aspects begin to tell on the services that the well-placed expect, we discover that they shall be given an opt-out in the form of an exclusive option funded from the taxes that we ordinary folk pay.

 

There are many ordinary people like me here in Sheffield, hundreds of thousands of us. People who such policies will harm. Are you a teacher or a nurse? Do you think you can work even harder to keep our creaking services afloat? Is your brother, sister, son, daughter or your partner so employed? Have you children of school age, or grandchildren, nephews or nieces in school? Then these cynical and exploitative notions are unlikely to help you or your relatives, they are likely to do the very opposite.

[unbeliever]

In this thread we have seen a dismissal of the notion that tax avoidance has any bearing on public service funding, and we have discovered that the resulting depletion of public service capacity should be made up by putting extra pressure on already overstretched public sector front line staff. And when these aspects begin to tell on the services that the well-placed expect, we discover that they shall be given an opt-out in the form of an exclusive option funded from the taxes that we ordinary folk pay.

 

There are many ordinary people like me here in Sheffield, hundreds of thousands of us. People who such policies will harm. Are you a teacher or a nurse? Do you think you can work even harder to keep our creaking services afloat? Is your brother, sister, son, daughter or your partner so employed? Have you children of school age, or grandchildren, nephews or nieces in school? Then these cynical and exploitative notions are unlikely to help you or your relatives, they are likely to do the very opposite.

 

Your characterisation of the differing view on this thread is extremely inaccurate and you talk like a daytime TV presenter.

You're either Jeremy Kyle or a low level politician and I claim my £10.

[L00b]

Well I don't know what the kids now are wanting to do that will get them super high salaries and respect

At the 11+ level, I'd say footballer, singer or TV celeb

 

Then they grow up and want a civil service job for the job security and pension (although...as it happens, I am currently recruiting, and that job security/pension notion seems to be waning amongst public job holders; certainly, the NHS types that have applied for the job and whom I've interviewed).

Lets put it this way, an awful lot of middle class parents will assume their offspring will be successful and not stack shelves at asda. Theyre going to assume jasper and matilda are going to make the cut on the 11plus.

You're not wrong there.

 

The reality check is frequently harder on the parents than the kids. Not unexpectedly, since the delusion runs deeper in the parents, who are effectively projecting.

Failure isn't a consideration.

Seen a few of these not so long ago at my daughter's school.

 

I'm confident in broad-brushing that they're the first to blame the world and its dog, vocally at that (and teachers first and foremost of course), for their cherub's lack of performance

 

Disclaimer/coming clean: we chose not to relocate within the Gainsborough (grammar) catchment 2 years ago.

 

We balanced the opportunity of our daughter maybe getting into Gainsborough grammar (she'd been catch up-tutored by a GG teacher for a while, who thought she'd easily get in (she is top set in everything)) and what that might gain her, against a 'normal' schooling (in an outstanding OFSTED) and avoiding yet another move taking her away from her circle of friend (a thoroughly decent and well-mannered lot).

 

Now, as a kid, I'd been (put-) through the private/try harder/"2nd place is 1st loser" thing by my parents (mostly my Dad, but my Mum was never that far behind...and she obviously learned from the experience, as my younger brother wasn't pushed at all, ever). For my whole primary schooling and most of my secondary schooling. I'm not spitting on the good aspects which the experience brought about...but for my daughter, that made it an easy choice

 

No-one should lose the kids' perspective in this debate. And at that level, there's basically three types:

 

(i) the conventionally gifted (top set by accident or design, but comfortable as such).

(ii) the naturally ubersmart/overachieving genius (seen some in my youth, and good friends' son is like that (but his sister is not)...and it's rare that academic overachievement of the time 'lasts' all the way into top-earning adulthood).

(iii) the force-conscripted pushed by his parent(s).

 

Grammars are great for (i) and (ii), conventional schooling is hell for them. But grammars are hell for (iii) just the same.

Edited September 13, 2016 by L00b

[syne]

Do you actually know any teachers?

 

If you did you wouldn't be saying half of that.

 

Yes loads,

 

Just had one read the post, they agree, 'not so sure about the work life balance bit though.'

but that's a very individual Circumstance vs organisational skills matter tbh.

[the_bloke]

Do you actually know any teachers?

 

If you did you wouldn't be saying half of that.

 

My best mate is a teacher, and that post could have come off his keyboard. If there is one thing he loathes, it's teachers who just cruise along day in and day out. It does nothing for the education of the children if the teacher is just making up the hours of the day.

[syne]

And I think that sentiment can be applied to many many professions, no one likes to take the slack of others for too long and no one likes to feel under appreciated when they're going that extra mile for their job.

 

It seems that a lot of public service roles have some very influential people sharpening knives or scheming to use them as a political football or a source of income.

Firemen, nurses, teachers, police you name it there's been some plan to privatise or somesuch nonsense

[unbeliever]

And I think that sentiment can be applied to many many professions, no one likes to take the slack of others for too long and no one likes to feel under appreciated when they're going that extra mile for their job.

 

It seems that a lot of public service roles have some very influential people sharpening knives or scheming to use them as a political football or a source of income.

Firemen, nurses, teachers, police you name it there's been some plan to privatise or somesuch nonsense

 

Are these actual plans. Or just conspiracy theories?