Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[Justin Smith]

And as I keep saying, if streaming is acceptable and proper than a grammar which is a dedicated school for the top streams, must also be so.

 

As I have repeatedly pointed out the comprehensive system was introduced in large part on the principle that streaming was bad and kids of all ability would do better without it. In fact many asserted that kids did not have differing ability and to suggest otherwise made one a right-wing ideologue.

Since streaming is now routine and widespread throughout the comprehensive system that argument has been comprehensively lost. What more is there to say?

 

And as we keep saying back, because you`re totally separating kids at 11. Whatever people say about changing schools later down the line that`s never going to be anywhere as easy as just changing set, a process that, I`d have thought, was relatively easy and ongoing. And setting by ability more reflects kids strengths and weaknesses anyway. Plus, the kids don`t mix out of class. Some people would say that was an advantage, they don`t consider that kids should mix with others "from the wrong side of the tracks", but they`d never admit it. Not that I`m necessarily accusing anyone on here of taking that view.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Justin Smith

[unbeliever]

And as we keep saying back, because you`re totally separating kids at 11. Whatever people say about changing schools later down the line that`s never going to be anywhere as easy as just changing set, a process that, I`d have thought, was relatively easy and ongoing. And setting by ability more reflects kids strengths and weaknesses anyway. Plus, the kids don`t mix out of class. Some people would say that was an advantage, they don`t consider that kids should mix with others "from the wrong side of the tracks", but they`d never admit it. Not that I`m necessarily accusing anyone on here of taking that view.

 

It's not about what side of the tracks there from. It's about tailoring to ability.

I really want to talk about whether selective schools are the best way to tailor to ability but this ridiculous notion this this ia about class keeps dropping in and I'm hardly going to let it go unchallenged.

 

These schools select by ability, not class. Just to be clear now. By ability and not by class. If you have a problem with the fact that people of higher ability tend to make more money and that such abilities are partly inherited then I suggest raise your objections with Darwin.

[LeMaquis]

These schools select by ability, not class. Just to be clear now. By ability and not by class.

 

Schools select via the 11 plus. What will happen is that middle-class parents will pay for private tuition for little Tarquin and Esmerelda so that they can spew out the correct answers. There was a news item on the BBC the other day showing that is exactly what happens in Trafford. Middle-class parents will do what they can to buy a grammar school education for their kids just as upper class people buy public school education for their children. It has nothing to do with ability but with programming kids.

[unbeliever]

Schools select via the 11 plus. What will happen is that middle-class parents will pay for private tuition for little Tarquin and Esmerelda so that they can spew out the correct answers. There was a news item on the BBC the other day showing that is exactly what happens in Trafford. Middle-class parents will do what they can to buy a grammar school education for their kids just as upper class people buy public school education for their children. It has nothing to do with ability but with programming kids.

 

I dare say that there's an advantage there. Some middle-class parents will have the means and inclination for this tutoring.

There are 2 problems with this though:

1. It's an argument against all testing and assessment.

2. It's an argument that the 11+ needs reform, not that selective schools are a bad idea.

 

I'm also rather unconvinced as to the efficacy of tutoring for the 11+. It's mostly an IQ test and tutoring will have limited effect.

[El Cid]

It would surely make sense from whatever age streaming is currently used.

 

 

Well the point is that most go to their local, which is often with a very short distance, primary school.

Parents dont always let their kids out on their own, because its too dangerous.

So in your scenario, junior school kids would be transported from one end of town to the other?

 

I dont think there is streaming in junior schools, not sure.

[unbeliever]

Well the point is that most go to their local, which is often with a very short distance, primary school.

Parents dont always let their kids out on their own, because its too dangerous.

So in your scenario, junior school kids would be transported from one end of town to the other?

 

I dont think there is streaming in junior schools, not sure.

 

I don't understand. If there is no streaming in junior schools then I would not support Junior Grammars. So there's nothing on that matter to discuss.

[El Cid]

I dare say that there's an advantage there. Some middle-class parents will have the means and inclination for this tutoring.

 

You seem to be of the opinion that middle class parents have more inclination, when it comes to their children.

 

---------- Post added 15-09-2016 at 12:45 ----------

 

I don't understand. If there is no streaming in junior schools then I would not support Junior Grammars. So there's nothing on that matter to discuss.

 

So you would be accepting that streaming is not a good idea, why?

[unbeliever]

You seem to be of the opinion that middle class parents have more inclination, when it comes to their children.

 

---------- Post added 15-09-2016 at 12:45 ----------

 

 

So you would be accepting that streaming is not a good idea, why?

 

 

Both of these statements are completely false and are not reasonable inferences from what I've written.

[El Cid]

Both of these statements are completely false and are not reasonable inferences from what I've written.

 

I disagree.

[unbeliever]

I disagree.

 

That's your prerogative but they're statements about my thoughts, so it's not clear why you think you know them better than me.