Tories to bring back Grammar schools

[Sidonica]

That's what I wrote in response to Maquis. Is it impossible to imagine teachers at primary schools helping their students prepare for the test? Why is it assumed only those that can afford a tutor will prep the kids?

 

And Eater Sundae replied with an excellent point.

 

At my junior school (Ecclesfield) all the final year children were prepared for the 11 plus. This was in the late 50's. I would like to think it wasn't the only state school doing it, perhaps others of my age would remember?

[sgtkate]

I'm undecided on the subject.

 

I was a product of the 11 plus and was fortunate to go to a successful grammar school. I met and associated with others from very different backgrounds - mostly from richer families than mine, but some poorer (in a few cases very poor). There was a cross section.

 

My daughter goes to a comprehensive, a good one (from a choice of good ones), because we are fortunate to be able to live in a fairly affluent area. All her friends are from reasonably affluent, aspirational families. Through my daughter, I know and can name 8 (medical) doctors who are parents of other children plus another 5 who I don't personally know, but are also doctors. Also, 6 teachers. There are a host of other professionals, as well as people who run their own businesses.

 

Basically, my daughter doesn't know any underprivileged children, or any children who are not brought up in an aspirational family.

 

If I could be confident that those who failed at 11 would still have opportunity to prosper and move up through the system, then I think I would support grammar schools, purely because it does allow anyone from any area to succeed.

 

For the two examples I've given (ie me and my daughter), there are the other sides of the coins. I've little first hand knowledge of the life of those who failed the 11 plus. I went on to be successful at school and university, and had a career in a responsible, professional position. I don't know what happened to the others. Similarly, my daughter doesn't know what opportunities are (or more importantly, are not) available to other children who do not get the opportunities that she and her friends get. From talking to some of our teacher friends, it is clear that there is a big divide between some of the comprehensives. How much of this is down to the financial clout of the parents, the aspiration and expectation of the parents and therefore of their children, the ability of the children, or the performance of the school, I don't know. The views of the teachers I know (those that work in more deprived areas but themselves live in the "better" areas) appear to put it down mostly to aspiration and expectation within the home and community. If that is the case, then I am concerned that these children are being let down just as much (but in a different way) than those who used to be thrown on the scrap heap when they failed the 11 plus.

 

As a society, we gllorify the successful high fliers and so we should, but it is important (and maybe we should be judged on) how we help the poor and less successful ones.

 

Excellent post and sums up my position and thoughts as well. It's easy for me to sit here and say how I think it should be when I went to a private school...

[altus]

But moving closer to better grammar schools won't guarantee their children a place - entry is due to ability.

I didn't say it would. But if they are going to a grammar school anyway it improves their chance of going to a better one - so there's still the incentive for parents to buy a house close to them.

[syne]

A long time ago it seems biotech mentioned the shortcomings of graduates, my initial thoughts were that the fee system for uni and the softening of entry requirements has led to people in effect buying degrees that xamount of years ago would have not even passed Alevels.

Now after a pp mentioned the difference between himself and wife, is the shortcoming a product of the educational foundation before degrees are even reached?

If you've got a record number of students getting into uni but a similar number coming from grammar which equals a proportionally smaller number is it easier to notice the divide?

 

Would the return of grammars slim down the numbers going to uni or produce a lot of disheartened grads when the job market starts to select by whole of education pedigree.

I mean that currently both grammars and comps teach to the same qualification, but arguably grammars are more effective(due to the obvious) and you'd expect more thorough teaching in a selective school, could this lead to a contraction of the uni intake from outside grammars or would a uni expand to meet demand, gather more fees whilst possibly creating a second uni tier of sorts.

[unbeliever]

A long time ago it seems biotech mentioned the shortcomings of graduates, my initial thoughts were that the fee system for uni and the softening of entry requirements has led to people in effect buying degrees that xamount of years ago would have not even passed Alevels.

Now after a pp mentioned the difference between himself and wife, is the shortcoming a product of the educational foundation before degrees are even reached?

If you've got a record number of students getting into uni but a similar number coming from grammar which equals a proportionally smaller number is it easier to notice the divide?

 

Would the return of grammars slim down the numbers going to uni or produce a lot of disheartened grads when the job market starts to select by whole of education pedigree.

I mean that currently both grammars and comps teach to the same qualification, but arguably grammars are more effective(due to the obvious) and you'd expect more thorough teaching in a selective school, could this lead to a contraction of the uni intake from outside grammars or would a uni expand to meet demand, gather more fees whilst possibly creating a second uni tier of sorts.

 

I don't think there's anything in these plans to prevent or even discourage people going from Comprehensives to Universities.

[syne]

. How about we use the year 6 SAT results instead of the dedicated 11+ test

 

Because the same problem exists, some schools teach sats almost exclusively from Christmas onwards to the detriment of all else. The sats are a massive problem in primary because it's a large part of ofstead ranks yet is, like many performance ratings overshadowing the point of teaching.

[unbeliever]

Because the same problem exists, some schools teach sats almost exclusively from Christmas onwards to the detriment of all else. The sats are a massive problem in primary because it's a large part of ofstead ranks yet is, like many performance ratings overshadowing the point of teaching.

 

So are you against all assessments?

[syne]

There might be nothing in the plans, but it's a given that the more pupils in grammar, the higher percentage of students in uni will come from grammar.

it will also have a knock on effect that as you cream off higher attainment pupils your going to quite probably lower overall actual attainment of the remainder as unfortunately children are influenced a lot by those around them.

 

Re assessment , no not against but the sats have produced some unintended consequences.

It would be very, very difficult to create an unobtrusive countrywide testing system though.

It would ironically have to be more frequent and arch more subjects to counter the tunnel vision that sats create.

 

Imagine being a Y6 teacher in a deprived area, every year your class does sats, which has an influence on your schools ofstead report, a bearing on their GCSEs predictions and their secondary sets.

Then follow the logical consequence of all those who pass into grammar schools and what kind of cohort that leaves for secondary teachers who have much the same problem coupled with a harder GCSEs set up.

How many years would it take for all 'failing' secondary's to be forcefully academised aka privatised.

One, two, six?

[unbeliever]

There might be nothing in the plans, but it's a given that the more pupils in grammar, the higher percentage of students in uni will come from grammar.

it will also have a knock on effect that as you cream off higher attainment pupils your going to quite probably lower overall actual attainment of the remainder as unfortunately children are influenced a lot by those around them.

 

Re assessment , no not against but the sats have produced some unintended consequences.

It would be very, very difficult to create an unobtrusive countrywide testing system though.

It would ironically have to be more frequent and arch more subjects to counter the tunnel vision that sats create.

 

Imagine being a Y6 teacher in a deprived area, every year your class does sats, which has an influence on your schools ofstead report, a bearing on their GCSEs predictions and their secondary sets.

Then follow the logical consequence of all those who pass into grammar schools and what kind of cohort that leaves for secondary teachers who have much the same problem coupled with a harder GCSEs set up.

 

Aren't schools assessed based on how much the kids improve rather than simply how well they do?

 

How many years would it take for all 'failing' secondary's to be forcefully academised aka privatised.

One, two, six?

 

What?!?

[syne]

Just had a thought re no of parents who want grammars, vs numbers of places.

Maybe it could lead to an overall increase in education. If you want to get your kid into grammar and they're not naturally gifted then extra tutoring is going to be needed.

The larger the number of places, the better the chance, the better the chance the more likely you'll try to go that extra mile, Instill good educational standards earlier etc.

 

Crushing failure labelling aside could be a good thing all round.

 

---------- Post added 15-09-2016 at 16:06 ----------

 

What?!?

 

It's pseudo privatisation, being able to divert tax money into private hands. Removing control of a school and its budget, especially its top slice from local governance into a private companies.

 

Please don't misunderstand, in some cases it's an absolute godsend

 

in others not so much.

http://www.localschoolsnetwork.org.uk/2013/08/how-many-academy-trusts-are-a-vehicle-for-investors-wishing-to-profit-from-running-englands-schools/%23sthash.bmgq1hei.dpuf