Who will replace Labour as the main "progressive" voice in parliament?

[alchresearch]

But if you look at why trump and corbyn are doing as well as they are (and the former is a coughing fit away from the white house as it stands) its because they are likely to get people to who don't vote ("cause theyre all the same") and will buy into populist politics.

 

They're saying what people want to hear.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't work out like that in the real world - promises get broken, voter trust is lost. Its even easier for the opposition to make bold promises. But when they get the power, they find its not possible.

 

Its only a matter of time before people realise Corbyn's actions can't meet his words.

 

Whether Corbyn could change that I don't know, does he have the power to change the entire political system?

[pacifica]

But if you look at why trump and corbyn are doing as well as they are (and the former is a coughing fit away from the white house as it stands) its because they are likely to get people to who don't vote ("cause theyre all the same") and will buy into populist politics.

 

I'm not sure how you regard corbin as doing well. he gathers around him a bunch of sycophants who will cheer his every breath. They will go to public meetings and throw bricks through the windows of the opposition. He has undoubtably attracted a lot of rabble to the labour party through the cut price membership. That isn't the same as having popular support from the electorate.

 

Arthur scargill could whip up a crowd and had the support of those in his private club, but when he launched his political party they could take away his votes in a carrier bag.

 

Sheffield United can draw a crowd of 20,000 every wekend but it doesn't mean there are 12 million supporters around the country, and without 12 million supporters he's not going to win the cigar.

Edited September 19, 2016 by pacifica

[tinfoilhat]

I'm not sure how you regard corbin as doing well. he gathers around him a bunch of sycophants who will cheer his every breath. They will go to public meetings and throw bricks through the windows of the opposition. He has undoubtably attracted a lot of rabble to the labour party through the cut price membership. That isn't the same as having popular support from the electorate.

 

Arthur scargill could whip up a crowd and had the support of those in his private club, but when he launched his political party they could take away his votes in a carrier bag.

 

Sheffield United can draw a crowd of 20,000 every wekend but it doesn't mean there are 12 million supporters around the country, and without 12 million supporters he's not going to win the cigar.

 

Im no fan of corbyn (I really must stress that) but can you think of another leader of the opposition who has no support from his own MPs? He's running on a groundswell of grassroots (have the ybeen ignored too long? They seem to think so) and arguably populist support.

[unbeliever]

I'm not sure how you regard corbin as doing well. he gathers around him a bunch of sycophants who will cheer his every breath. They will go to public meetings and throw bricks through the windows of the opposition. He has undoubtably attracted a lot of rabble to the labour party through the cut price membership. That isn't the same as having popular support from the electorate.

 

Arthur scargill could whip up a crowd and had the support of those in his private club, but when he launched his political party they could take away his votes in a carrier bag.

 

Sheffield United can draw a crowd of 20,000 every wekend but it doesn't mean there are 12 million supporters around the country, and without 12 million supporters he's not going to win the cigar.

 

 

Well put.

 

Also, I must point out that there's no indication from local elections or by-elections since Corbyn became leader of a small increase in turnout, let alone the sort of massive increase in turnout that one would expect if Corbyn were energising the self-disenfranchised masses.

 

Tooting by-election, 2016: Turnout fell from 53,529 to 31,763. That's rubbish even for a by-election.

Ogmore by-election, 2016: Turnout dell from 35,250 to 23,532. Again, rubbish.

I could go on. Check it out if you don't believe me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_by-elections_(2010–present)

 

If Corbyn's strategy is to win by getting turnout up, then when is he going to start?

 

 

---------- Post added 19-09-2016 at 13:41 ----------

 

Im no fan of corbyn (I really must stress that) but can you think of another leader of the opposition who has no support from his own MPs? He's running on a groundswell of grassroots (have the ybeen ignored too long? They seem to think so) and arguably populist support.

 

 

What populist support?

This is a myth. You can't make it true just by repeating it.

 

"Groundswell of grassroots" is I suppose one way of referring to the radical insurgency of Momentum.

Edited September 19, 2016 by unbeliever

[Santo]

I'm not sure you're reasonably described as a moderate.

The polls tell me, quite emphatically, that moderates will not vote for Corbyn. Ask some yourself.

The world hasn't changed. At last not for 90% of people.

 

I agree. The banking crisis wasn't like the Berlin Wall coming down.

 

Plus, Corbyn has a lot of young supporters. They weren't old enough to vote in 2008. So how can they be 'fed up of being **** on from a great height?'

 

The girl on QT that bemoans the Tories in their expensive suits compared to Corbyn in his tatty blazer making him 'real.' Wow!! And I'm fed up of three current political buzzwords; MSM, Blairite, Establishment. They don't mean anything to anyone but the Corbynistas.

 

Isn't it just the old adage that you start off liberal and get more conservative with age? Though Anna seems to be going the other way...

Edited September 19, 2016 by Santo

[Robin-H]

I agree. The banking crisis wasn't like the Berlin Wall coming down.

 

Plus, Corbyn has a lot of young supporters. They weren't old enough to vote in 2008. So how can they be 'fed up of being **** on from a great height?'

 

The girl on QT that bemoans the Tories in their expensive suits compared to Corbyn in his tatty blazer making him 'real.' Wow!! And I'm fed up of three current political buzzwords; MSM, Blairite, Establishment. They don't mean anything to anyone but the Corbynistas.

 

Isn't it just the old adage that you start off liberal and get more conservative with age? Though Anna seems to be going the other way...

 

'If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.'

 

Attributed to Churchill, although very doubtful he ever said it..

[unbeliever]

I agree. The banking crisis wasn't like the Berlin Wall coming down.

 

Plus, Corbyn has a lot of young supporters. They weren't old enough to vote in 2008. So how can they be 'fed up of being **** on from a great height?'

 

The girl on QT that bemoans the Tories in their expensive suits compared to Corbyn in his tatty blazer making him 'real.' Wow!! And I'm fed up of three current political buzzwords; MSM, Blairite, Establishment. They don't mean anything to anyone but the Corbynistas.

 

Isn't it just the old adage that you start off liberal and get more conservative with age? Though Anna seems to be going the other way...

 

 

Whinging on endlessly about the media is a class political stunt.

"Don't listen to outside viewpoints, hear only my words".

Didn't work when Sarah Palin tried it.

 

Associating all his political opponents within the party with Blair is a good trick. Not many people less popular right now than Blair.

 

Corbyn is a mainstream career politician who thinks he's found a niche in the political parameter space from which to build power. If he's not the "establishment" then nobody is.

He's absolutely nothing special. If the ridiculous train spin-fest foul-up didn't demonstrate this to anybody then they're beyond reason.

[Santo]

'If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.'

 

Attributed to Churchill, although very doubtful he ever said it..

 

No, that's not one of his. As you say, often attributed to him though. It's called Churchillian Shift or something. A lot are falsely attributed to Oscar Wilde as well.

[tinfoilhat]

Well put.

 

Also, I must point out that there's no indication from local elections or by-elections since Corbyn became leader of a small increase in turnout, let alone the sort of massive increase in turnout that one would expect if Corbyn were energising the self-disenfranchised masses.

 

Tooting by-election, 2016: Turnout fell from 53,529 to 31,763. That's rubbish even for a by-election.

Ogmore by-election, 2016: Turnout dell from 35,250 to 23,532. Again, rubbish.

I could go on. Check it out if you don't believe me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_by-elections_(2010–present)

 

If Corbyn's strategy is to win by getting turnout up, then when is he going to start?

 

 

---------- Post added 19-09-2016 at 13:41 ----------

 

 

 

What populist support?

This is a myth. You can't make it true just by repeating it.

 

"Groundswell of grassroots" is I suppose one way of referring to the radical insurgency of Momentum.

 

Ok, he's by far the most popular candidate within the Labour Party. There 640,000 members of the Labour Party. More want him than don't. According to the Indy, they had 183000 applications in 48 hours in July - I don't know whether that counts in the 640k or not. Hes going to win th leadership race by a distance. If he was some ranting nut job with no support, this thread wouldn't exist. Just because they are loud (and wrong) it doesn't make them less in number. He's got the numbers, they can't all be new to politics.

[unbeliever]

Ok, he's by far the most popular candidate within the Labour Party. There 640,000 members of the Labour Party. More want him than don't. According to the Indy, they had 183000 applications in 48 hours in July - I don't know whether that counts in the 640k or not. Hes going to win th leadership race by a distance. If he was some ranting nut job with no support, this thread wouldn't exist. Just because they are loud (and wrong) it doesn't make them less in number. He's got the numbers, they can't all be new to politics.

 

What?!?

 

The party will vote Labour anyway. What about the other 45 million electors?

640,000/45,000,000=1.4%