Who will replace Labour as the main "progressive" voice in parliament?

[unbeliever]

Corbyn is more anti-establishment than to be in the Westminster bubble, and he at least gets out and about and talks to ordinary people (like me) rather than the pre- arranged, stage managed meetings other party leaders seem to indulge in.

 

No he doesn't. They all meet regular people and they all do stage-management. It's part of the political process. You're falling for nonsense propaganda. In fact you only make this assertion because Corbyn has successfully stage-managed the routine activities of an MP to con you into believing it.

They don't come more establishment than Corbyn as 5 minutes reading his employment history will tell you.

 

How often did David Cameron meet with the ordinary working man for a frank exchange of views.

 

See above.

 

Which Conservative MP said 'the poor will simply have to learn to manage with less.'

 

No idea.

 

I support Corbyn because I agree with most of his policies, what's jam-making got to do with it? You really do insult people's intelligence.

 

That's not good enough. Many people support those exact same policies. That's perfectly fine. Corbyn is weak, unqualified and incapable. By supporting him you do your cause more harm than good.

 

You and I have had plenty of exchanges on this forum before. We agree on very little, but I believe in fair play and I think you do too. Corbyn and especially McDonnell are playing you for a fool. You're helping them not your political ideas and agenda.

I would not tell you this unless I was genuinely convinced of it.

My side will win massively out of the collapse of Labour which Corbyn and McDonnell are engineering. I have nothing to gain for myself by repeatedly telling you and the other Corbyn supporters thus. I'm trying to save you from yourselves.

 

They tell you to doubt what you're told, except from them. That politicians are not on your side, except for them. That powerful people act selfishly, except for them. And so the pattern continues.

They're almost right. All you have to do is chop off the "except for them".

 

Question everything, including from them. That's all you have to do. Treat Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum with the same scepticism that they would have you treat everybody else. The reality of what's going in will very promptly become very obvious to you.

Edited September 22, 2016 by unbeliever

[Robin-H]

Corbyn is more anti-establishment than to be in the Westminster bubble, and he at least gets out and about and talks to ordinary people (like me) rather than the pre- arranged, stage managed meetings other party leaders seem to indulge in. How often did David Cameron meet with the ordinary working man for a frank exchange of views. Which Conservative MP said 'the poor will simply have to learn to manage with less.'

 

I support Corbyn because I agree with most of his policies, what's jam-making got to do with it? You really do insult people's intelligence.

 

I'm not sure about David Cameron, I'm sure others might have more information.

 

I do know however that soon after Theresa May became PM she continued to go out door stepping and meeting 'the ordinary working man for a frank exchange of views'. It was very little reported in the press but Jeremy Hunt took out one day a week to volunteer at the NHS (in Kennington, where I used to live). So to claim Corbyn is somehow special in this respect is nonsense.

 

Another thing..

 

Cornyn's son Seb is John McDonnell's chief of staff. How does getting your son a cushy job within Westminster suggest he is not part of the Westminster Bubble? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyns-son-seb-appointed-as-john-mcdonnells-chief-of-staff-a6669996.html

 

Also, his £40,000 a year 'political advisor' is the 27 year old daughter of his friend (the Unite Union chief of staff). How does getting your friend's children cushy jobs imply he is not part of the Westminster bubble?

Edited September 22, 2016 by Robin-H

[Santo]

I caught the Despatches Momentum expose. It was quite dull. It concluded Momentum are using official Labour funds to pay their staff to do Momentum work and that they allow people to join who are barred by Labour themselves. I was expecting to see something rather more grubby.

 

---------- Post added 22-09-2016 at 14:19 ----------

 

I'm not sure about David Cameron, I'm sure others might have more information.

 

I do know however that soon after Theresa May became PM she continued to go out door stepping and meeting 'the ordinary working man for a frank exchange of views'. It was very little reported in the press but Jeremy Hunt took out one day a week to volunteer at the NHS (in Kennington, where I used to live). So to claim Corbyn is somehow special in this respect is nonsense.

 

Another thing..

 

Cornyn's son Seb is John McDonnell's chief of staff. How does getting your son a cushy job within Westminster suggest he is not part of the Westminster Bubble? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyns-son-seb-appointed-as-john-mcdonnells-chief-of-staff-a6669996.html

 

Also, his £40,000 a year 'political advisor' is the 27 year old daughter of his friend (the Unite Union chief of staff). How does getting your friend's children cushy jobs imply he is not part of the Westminster bubble?

 

Sebastian? Good working class British name.....truly, a man of the people.

[Anna B]

No he doesn't. They all meet regular people and they all do stage-management. It's part of the political process. You're falling for nonsense propaganda. In fact you only make this assertion because Corbyn has successfully stage-managed the routine activities of an MP to con you into believing it.

They don't come more establishment than Corbyn as 5 minutes reading his employment history will tell you.

 

 

 

See above.

 

 

 

No idea.

 

 

 

That's not good enough. Many people support those exact same policies. That's perfectly fine. Corbyn is weak, unqualified and incapable. By supporting him you do your cause more harm than good.

 

You and I have had plenty of exchanges on this forum before. We agree on very little, but I believe in fair play and I think you do too. Corbyn and especially McDonnell are playing you for a fool. You're helping them not your political ideas and agenda.

I would not tell you this unless I was genuinely convinced of it.

My side will win massively out of the collapse of Labour which Corbyn and McDonnell are engineering. I have nothing to gain for myself by repeatedly telling you and the other Corbyn supporters thus. I'm trying to save you from yourselves.

 

They tell you to doubt what you're told, except from them. That politicians are not on your side, except for them. That powerful people act selfishly, except for them. And so the pattern continues.

They're almost right. All you have to do is chop off the "except for them".

 

Question everything, including from them. That's all you have to do. Treat Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum with the same scepticism that they would have you treat everybody else. The reality of what's going in will very promptly become very obvious to you.

 

If Corbyn's as bad as all the others, (he might be, who knows,) what does that say about the state of British politics?

 

Bring on the Revolution!

[unbeliever]

If Corbyn's as bad as all the others, (he might be, who knows,) what does that say about the state of British politics?

 

Corbyn is at least as bad as all the others. Worse I would say because he pretends to be different.

 

This tells us that civil society is not perfect. That there's room for improvement. That all people are fallible and the political system must account for that.

That the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. And dozens more political cliches, but you get the idea.

 

Bring on the Revolution!

 

Please think about that properly. Democracy is the worst system of government apart from all the others. You don't really want to try living without it. When has that ever worked for the very people you want to protect?

 

 

May I just say how nice it is to debate these matters with you rather another Corbyn supporter on this forum who I shan't name. Nice to know that not all Corbyn supporters are completely beyond reason.

Edited September 22, 2016 by unbeliever

[Jeffrey Shaw]

So lets' assume a Corbyn win on Saturday. What does that change?

[A: Nothing]

But it might hasten Labour's disappearance as a credible Opposition. That's saddening, even to those who do not support either wing.

[tinfoilhat]

If Corbyn's as bad as all the others, (he might be, who knows,) what does that say about the state of British politics?

 

Bring on the Revolution!

 

There could be a complete cleaning of house of MPs and they'd be replaced by the same two sorts of people, those who just want power an influence and those idealists who want to help people who are slowly corrupted by the diet of power and influence.

 

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some lefty said that, don't recall who. It's odd, because Cameron came from wealth and didn't hang around long he'll probably have much of his morals, such as they are, intact. Blair on the other hand who may have started as an idealist has lost his soul completely and will likely burn in hell, as he spent too much time, wielding too much power with little comeback.

[Robin-H]

There could be a complete cleaning of house of MPs and they'd be replaced by the same two sorts of people, those who just want power an influence and those idealists who want to help people who are slowly corrupted by the diet of power and influence.

 

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some lefty said that, don't recall who. It's odd, because Cameron came from wealth and didn't hang around long he'll probably have much of his morals, such as they are, intact. Blair on the other hand who may have started as an idealist has lost his soul completely and will likely burn in hell, as he spent too much time, wielding too much power with little comeback.

 

It was John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton. He was a Liberal, although wouldn't exactly call him a lefty by today's standards.

[Santo]

It was John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton. He was a Liberal, although wouldn't exactly call him a lefty by today's standards.

 

And the rest of the quote is often forgotten:

 

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.

[Robin-H]

And the rest of the quote is often forgotten:

 

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.

 

I've never really understood this quote of his..

 

"Save for the wild force of Nature, nothing moves in this world that is not Greek in its origin"

 

Anyway we digress..