Can I carry gardening tools in public?

[Obelix]

A car is a public place - it's no different from having a knife in your suitcase or backpack.

 

A locking knife is perfectly legal in public IF you have good reason... it's not therefore an absolute offence. I think what you mean is an offence of strict liability as it doesnt require mens rea to be established, just actus reus.

 

---------- Post added 29-09-2016 at 08:35 ----------

 

 

That's why you carry it an a non threatening manner

 

As for the knife you need to read the relevant case law and judges comments, which I will find given half a chance.... somewhere...

 

The relevant case law is Harris v DPP 1993.

 

http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/arrested_rights/Harris_DirPubPros.htm

 

A rather lengthy read but the salient point from the High Court is

 

In my judgment, the right approach to the matter is this. To be a folding pocketknife the knife has to be readily and indeed immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process. A knife of the type with which these appeals are concerned is not in this category because, in the first place, there is a stage, namely, when it has been opened, when it is not immediately foldable simply by the folding process and, secondly, it requires that further process, namely, the pressing of the button.

[RootsBooster]

Don't spend too long searching; most of the legislation mentioned is available from the link I included in Post 66 earlier in this thread.

 

I believe that this is probably the relevant comment;

Taken from R E G I N A - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN

 

" The Divisional Court in Harris v DPP and Fehmi v DPP 96 Cr.App.R. 235 held that to be "a folding pocket-knife" the blade has to be readily and immediately foldable at all times simply by the folding process."

 

I think this also covers Multitools where the blade is on the inside of the plier handle like the Original Leatherman.

Here the blade can be exposed with the tool closed, and is not Immediately Foldable, though it is of course far safer in use.

Compare this with the current Juice range, for example, which have a blade which is "Immediately Foldable" regardless of the configuration of the pliers' handle.

 

The relevant case law is Harris v DPP 1993.

 

http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/arrested_rights/Harris_DirPubPros.htm

 

A rather lengthy read but the salient point from the High Court is

That'll do for me. I'm not a fan of using the blade on leatherman style multitools anyway, I prefer a more dedicated pocket knife. I only keep the multitool in the campervan because I go camping a lot. From this point on I'll remember to keep it in the garage until I go camping.

[Owethemnowt]

yup IF i get caught, and THEN IF i get charged.

 

go do some research.

 

come back with the amount of middle aged blokes in the suburbs get randomly stopped. and then searched, and then charged, and then found guilty. blah blah blah.

 

Amazingly ignorant.

 

The law is the law and if under any circumstances you were challenged you would be prosecuted - under the law. Being habitual doesn't justify being armed.

 

You remain a bellicose fool.

[Cyclone]

Don't spend too long searching; most of the legislation mentioned is available from the link I included in Post 66 earlier in this thread.

 

I believe that this is probably the relevant comment;

Taken from R E G I N A - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN

 

" The Divisional Court in Harris v DPP and Fehmi v DPP 96 Cr.App.R. 235 held that to be "a folding pocket-knife" the blade has to be readily and immediately foldable at all times simply by the folding process."

 

I think this also covers Multitools where the blade is on the inside of the plier handle like the Original Leatherman.

Here the blade can be exposed with the tool closed, and is not Immediately Foldable, though it is of course far safer in use.

Compare this with the current Juice range, for example, which have a blade which is "Immediately Foldable" regardless of the configuration of the pliers' handle.

 

Thanks. Always happy to learn something.

 

---------- Post added 29-09-2016 at 16:43 ----------

 

Out of interest, which part of closing a leatherman requires an action that is not the "folding" of some part of the tool?

 

A knife of the type with which these appeals are concerned is not in this category because, in the first place, there is a stage, namely, when it has been opened, when it is not immediately foldable simply by the folding process and, secondly, it requires that further process, namely, the pressing of the button."

There is no button, lever or other mechanism of locking, right? It's just a folding process that requires more than 1 mechanical movement, nor is the blade held into a locked position such that it acts like a fixed blade knife?

Ultimately McCowan LJ accepted the submission on behalf of the prosecution in that case that "when the knife is locked it becomes in effect a fixed blade knife and the intention of the statute is to prevent the carrying of such a knife." McCowan LJ finally concluded his judgment

So a leatherman would not fit that characteristic? Nor does it require any action other than folding (it's just a multi stage fold).

[Obelix]

Thanks. Always happy to learn something.

 

---------- Post added 29-09-2016 at 16:43 ----------

 

Out of interest, which part of closing a leatherman requires an action that is not the "folding" of some part of the tool?

 

 

There is no button, lever or other mechanism of locking, right? It's just a folding process that requires more than 1 mechanical movement, nor is the blade held into a locked position such that it acts like a fixed blade knife?

 

So a leatherman would not fit that characteristic? Nor does it require any action other than folding (it's just a multi stage fold).

 

A standard Leatherman has a positive lock button.

 

Some Leathermans don't havea lock but the blade folds into the other handle and jams. So you have to move the handle first, and then fold it. That means it's not "immediately foldable"

 

The Leatherman Juice range is immediately foldable to closed.

[RootsBooster]

There is no button, lever or other mechanism of locking, right? It's just a folding process that requires more than 1 mechanical movement, nor is the blade held into a locked position such that it acts like a fixed blade knife?

 

So a leatherman would not fit that characteristic? Nor does it require any action other than folding (it's just a multi stage fold).

 

I don't think "multi stage fold" quite counts as "immediately foldable" in the eyes of the law.

[RootsBooster]

 

If i was challenged, and IF i was charged, and IF the CPS decided there was any point in persueing it then and only then IF all those IF's are in place. there are a lot of people walking around all day long with assorted knives in their pockets.

 

grdeners, builders, farmers, theatre workers with leathermans on their hips. none of those people get stopped by the police because none of them do anything to cause a policeman to want/need to.

 

 

 

and as they carry me off to my coffin in my old age i STILL will never have been questioned by a policeman for anything.

 

i may at one point in my old age ask one to help me cross a road. and still wont be asked what i have in my pockets.

 

 

you may choose to worry about what may happen if you are stopped and searched. i will choose not to. as i wont ever be stopped.

as i joked earlier.

 

if you look dodgy, expect to be questioned. if you dont, then dont.

 

Oddly, you appear to be trying to use other people to justify your own actions (otherwise known as an appeal to popularity). If you were caught speeding do you think they'd let you off if you said " C'mon guvnah, everyone else wuz speedin' too!" ?

Regardless of what reasons others may or may not have, if you don't have a good reason yourself, you will be breaking the law.

 

Simply not looking dodgy isn't enough to protect you from this.

[Cyclone]

I don't think "multi stage fold" quite counts as "immediately foldable" in the eyes of the law.

 

The case that was being used to support this didn't say that, it did specifically mention buttons and other means of locking.

 

---------- Post added 30-09-2016 at 07:18 ----------

 

A standard Leatherman has a positive lock button.

 

I guess I've never seen the standard model then. Which is quite likely. I did buy my other half a juice, so I've definitely seen that one.

[RootsBooster]

The case that was being used to support this didn't say that, it did specifically mention buttons and other means of locking.

 

You quoted it in your post #85

[Cyclone]

This quote?

 

when it is not immediately foldable simply by the folding process and, secondly, it requires that further process, namely, the pressing of the button."

 

Notice how it mentions a mechanism...

 

Personally (having now read that entire judgement) I don't think it applies to leathermans in a clear cut way. Another court might find that the same applies, or might decide that a leatherman IS still closed by the means of folding, with no mechanism to stop it. The act of folding in that case being one that requires several folds, ie to move the pliers part out of the way.

It might also decide that since the blade is not actually "locked" into a single position, that it isn't in any way locking...

 

There definitely seems to be some area for argument around whether that judgement would apply. The only way to be sure would be to be charged and to go to court to argue it of course.