Badge - Foreign

[Santo]

Did you miss the 'not' disqualifying you, Ron, tfh and the others from the adjective?

I've edited in some more topical accuracy, if you don't mind.

 

The UKIP voter-courting aspect of the exercise was never lost on me, Santo. But it's one thing to consider the matter as a casual political observer...and another when you also happen to be directly concerned by the proposed measure.

 

Leading to questions such as "if this goes through, where does this end?" (obviously, but then-) "Should my wife be listed as in a relationship with a non-British subject?", "Should my daughter's school list her as a dual national?", <...>

 

Musings for thoughts.

 

One thing I can certainly guarantee you, on the basis of specialist multinational/expatriate forums that I also frequent, is that there are a lot of EU immigrants (and non-EU ones such as Kiwis and Aussies) pondering these very questions since yesterday.

 

Isn't that the slippery slope fallacy?

[unbeliever]

Well the smart ones aren't the ones killing and/or beating people in Harlow or leaving "No more Polish Vermin" cards on cars in Huntington. What are the smart ones doing?

 

Sitting quietly in the background, keeping their hands technically clean, and acquiring power by controlling the dumb ones.

 

I fear we may have drifted off the central topic a little.

My point is more that to blame bigotry on Brexit is to misunderstand the breadth and depth of the problem.

Edited October 6, 2016 by unbeliever

[L00b]

Well the smart ones aren't the ones killing and/or beating people in Harlow or leaving "No more Polish Vermin" cards on cars in Huntington. What are the smart ones doing?

Drawing up lists. Well...they were last time.

Isn't that the slippery slope fallacy?

Put yourselves in my shoes (or Tim's), and rewind 6 months.

 

Now play the tape again. Call me back when you've done and you're back to the end of Rudd's and May's speeches

Edited October 6, 2016 by L00b

[Santo]

I was more concerned about Fox (I think it was Fox) refusing to guarantee right to remain for EU citizens in the UK now. He referred to the matter as cards needed to use during negotiation. These are people, not cards.

 

However, courting Kippers might be pointless since the party is in marvellous meltdown. Woolfe has just been hospitalised following an altercation at a UKIP MEP meeting.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Santo

[the_bloke]

Still waiting for a better explanation than 'because I don't like it' as to why a company publishing the number of different nationalities it employs as being discriminatory.

 

Is it a case of it being fine if a company does so voluntarily, as seen here:

 

 

Or a case of it being fine if it's done by the EU:

 

http://ec.europa.eu/civil_service/about/figures/index_en.htm

 

It's a list of nationalities with a number alongside. It's just nameless data.

[L00b]

I was more concerned about Fox (I think it was Fox) refusing to guarantee right to remain for EU citizens in the UK now. He referred to the matter as cards needed to use during negotiation. These are people, not cards.

This isn't new, it was already stated (less bluntly than Fox) when May first became PM.

 

It's part and parcel of the changing gradient for that "slippery slope" of yours.

However, courting Kippers might be pointless now since the party is in meltdown. Woolfe gas just been hospitalised following an altercation at a UKIP MEP meeting.

The MEP that landed him in hospital will likely face a disciplinary sanction (MEPs are subjected to a Code of Conduct) and, since this was a meeting of UKIP MEPs, it's a safe bet that it was another UKIP MEP.

 

In the current climate, I can see Schultz going for at least a suspension, if not outright dismissal (it's not his prerogative/the EU's I'm quick to add, it's the EU27 heads of state ('meeting of presidents', Rule 166(3)d)).

 

Any which way you look at it, this will just be turned into more oil onto the populist fire in the end. You just watch.

Edited October 6, 2016 by L00b

[Santo]

Still waiting for a better explanation than 'because I don't like it' as to why a company publishing the number of different nationalities it employs as being discriminatory.

 

Is it a case of it being fine if a company does so voluntarily, as seen here:

 

 

Or a case of it being fine if it's done by the EU:

 

http://ec.europa.eu/civil_service/about/figures/index_en.htm

 

It's a list of nationalities with a number alongside. It's just nameless data.

 

Couldn't anyone that cared use a freedom of information request for that info anyway?

 

You are right; the census would provide an out of date and vague picture.

 

---------- Post added 06-10-2016 at 13:24 ----------

 

This isn't new, it was already stated (less bluntly than Fox) when May first became PM.

 

It's part and parcel of the changing gradient for that "slippery slope" of yours.

The MEP that landed him in hospital will likely face a disciplinary sanction (MEPs are subjected to a Code of Conduct) and, since this was a meeting of UKIP MEPs, it's a safe bet that it was another UKIP MEP.

 

In the current climate, I can see Schultz going for at least a suspension, if not outright dismissal (it's not his prerogative/the EU's, it's the EU27 heads of state ('meeting presidents')).

 

Any which way you look at it, this will just be turned into more oil onto the populist fire in the end. You just watch.

 

What populist fire? It's an internal disagreement and it follows a new leader being in post for 18 days.

 

Arron Banks hinted yesterday he might withdraw support if anyone but Woolfe takes over from Farage.

 

The people don't vote for parties fighting amongst themselves.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Santo

[nightrider]

Couldn't anyone that cared use a freedom of information request for that info anyway?

 

You are right; the census would provide an out of date and vague picture.

 

---------- Post added 06-10-2016 at 13:24 ----------

 

 

It may well be anyone can find this out anyway.

 

I think peoples objection is the idea of some kind of official list being published, with those companies that are judged to have too many foreigners being "named and "shamed". Should my employer (a University) be "named and shamed" for employing lots of immigrants? What should happen to organisations that fall foul of this?

 

Might have got peoples backs up less if they had said they would collate anonymised data on sectors and then provide policies to help make native job applicants more competitive in those industries? There's probably many other ways of dealing with this that would not make foreign people feel unwelcome too.

[L00b]

What populist fire?

The one currently burning in the UK.

 

Given that the meeting is reported as a meeting of UKIP MEPs in Strasbourg, as I stated it's a safe bet that the offending MEP is a British UKIP MEP.

 

Shultz cannot 'do nothing' when a group of MEPs come to fisticuffs and one lands in hospital. Especially not after the fact gets publicised. So a British UKIP MEP is highly to get disciplined shortly, maybe even chucked out of the European Parliament.

 

Now, if that happens, do you expect the pro-Brexit/hard-Brexit/Leave side to recognise and quietly accept that Shultz had to impose a sanction on a UKIP MEP? That if the UKIP MEP ends up chucked out, it will have been a collective decision by the heads of state of the EU27, and neither Schultz' nor Juncker's decision?

 

Or do you expect to turn this around as the big bad EU acting antidemocratically by revoking an elected British MEP?

 

Answers on a postage stamp, that's all the space you need for that one.

 

FOIs don't apply to private companies, btw. And I remind you that staff nationality is a protected characteristic under UK law. You need (all of-) the staff's approval to publish their nationality in any way or form. Even if they are not named. Because they may still be identifiable.

Edited October 6, 2016 by L00b

[Santo]

The one currently burning in the UK.

 

Given that the meeting is reported as a meeting of UKIP MEPs in Strasbourg, as I stated it's a safe bet that the offending MEP is a British UKIP MEP.

 

Shultz cannot 'do nothing' when a group of MEPs come to fisticuffs and one lands in hospital. Especially not after the fact gets publicised. So a British UKIP MEP is highly to get disciplined shortly, maybe even chucked out of the European Parliament.

 

Now, if that happens, do you expect the pro-Brexit/hard-Brexit/Leave side to recognise and quietly accept that Shultz had to impose a sanction on a UKIP MEP? That if the UKIP MEP ends up chucked out, it will have been a collective decision by the heads of state of the EU27, and neither Schultz' nor Juncker's decision?

 

Or do you expect to turn this around as the big bad EU acting antidemocratically by revoking an elected British MEP?

 

Answers on a postage stamp, that's all the space you need for that one.

 

I expect right minded people to know (or learn them since this has happened) the rules and respect them.

 

Like right minded people think Clarkson deserved to be fired from Top Gear for smacking a producer (though he wasn't sacked, his contract wasn't renewed)

 

MPs are suspended here all the time. Ask Ken Livingstone.

 

It's not like they have 'tenure' and we think they can do what they like. Violence or otherwise.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Santo