The Consequences of Brexit (part 2)

[tinfoilhat]

If the Russians start making serious inroads into eastern Europe, the people of Europe will naturally worry about where they intend to stop.

 

I think it would stop at the borders of the various, larger states formally under soviet influence. I don't think putin could stroll into Poland for example without serious casualties. They won't get near the west unless they plan on bypassing great swathes of Eastern Europe.

[unbeliever]

I think it would stop at the borders of the various, larger states formally under soviet influence. I don't think putin could stroll into Poland for example without serious casualties. They won't get near the west unless they plan on bypassing great swathes of Eastern Europe.

 

And they have the resources to hold on to these places?

What do they gain by doing so anyway?

[Justin Smith]

Well clearly they were because they voted to leave. Dress it up with whatever distorted statistics you like but it won't alter the facts.

 

Nor for that matter will trying to pretend that the current situation is any different.

 

Before you start accusing anyone of distorting anything, you should check your facts, in April 2015 less than 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns. It is indeed frightening what a deceitful campaign (and "opinion papers" like the Mail and Express) can do in just over one year.

Just out of interest, what paper do you read ?

[unbeliever]

Before you start accusing anyone of distorting anything, you should check your facts, in April 2015 less than 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns. It is indeed frightening what a deceitful campaign (and "opinion papers" like the Mail and Express) can do in just over one year.

Just out of interest, what paper do you read ?

 

Ugh! Countered so many times already I've lost count.

[Justin Smith]

Before you start accusing anyone of distorting anything, you should check your facts, in April 2015 less than 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns. It is indeed frightening what a deceitful campaign (and "opinion papers" like the Mail and Express) can do in just over one year.

 

Ugh! Countered so many times already I've lost count.

 

Two things here :

 

1 - You haven`t countered it as far as I`m aware. How can you anyway ? It`s just a statistic. The only way you could counter it is to say that in that poll far more than 15% were bothered about immigration, that would be true. But there are answers to that one anyway, not least that more than 50% of immigration comes from outside the EU, and that is far more likely to be non white immigration, the type which most upsets those who are anti immigration.

 

2 - I keep quoting the poll because I`m sick to the back teeth of people who have always been obsessed with the EU talking like most other people have been. That`s simply rubbish. But maybe they`re so blinkered they don`t know it`s rubbish.

[unbeliever]

Two things here :

 

1 - You haven`t countered it as far as I`m aware. How can you anyway ? It`s just a statistic. The only way you could counter it is to say far more than 15% were bothered about immigration. But there are answers to that one anyway, not least that more than 50% of immigration comes from outside the EU, and that is far more likely to be non white immigration, the type which most upsets those who are anti immigration.

 

2 - I keep quoting the poll because I`m sick to the back teeth of people who have always been obsessed with the EU talking like most other people have been. That`s simply rubbish. But maybe they`re so blinkered they don`t know it`s rubbish.

 

 

There are dozens of not hundreds of issues at election time. Not getting an issue into everybody's top 3 doesn't make it unimportant.

Try asking people whether those who make their laws should be accountable to them through the democratic process. See where it ranks then.

[hush]

Before you start accusing anyone of distorting anything, you should check your facts, in April 2015 less than 15% of voters put Europe in their top three of concerns. It is indeed frightening what a deceitful campaign (and "opinion papers" like the Mail and Express) can do in just over one year.

Just out of interest, what paper do you read ?

 

Just how many concerns is a person allowed to have? Perhaps you just need to change the record.

I'm concerned about education, health, security, immigration etc. That doesn't mean I can't be concerned about the EU. The same applies to everyone else.

Really if that is your best shot you should give up now.

 

I read Private Eye and I'm looking forward to getting out of the EU.

[tinfoilhat]

And they have the resources to hold on to these places?

What do they gain by doing so anyway?

 

I dont know, you wondered what might happen if russia made inroad into europe - Im suggesting they wont get very far into europe - at all, certainly not into EU territory.

[hush]

You miss the point: who's "we", would Britain and/or France go fight for Latvia or Estonia, and do you think the French public would support that intervention any more than the British public would support British intervention?

 

Putin's not been bodily checked in well over a decade, not even on proxy terrain like Syria, and it's not looking like he will be anytime soon: Trump picked Rex Tillerson for State, and his incoming team is already making noises about recognising Crimea.

Who's that then?

 

Norway, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Mongolia, China, North Korea, Japan, and the United States.

 

There's certainly a couple in there that could give them a good kicking and afterwards even Latvia could go in and mop up.

 

---------- Post added 16-12-2016 at 14:11 ----------

 

I dont know, you wondered what might happen if russia made inroad into europe - Im suggesting they wont get very far into europe - at all, certainly not into EU territory.

 

I think it was quite an eye-opener for many how badly Russian hardware performed when it came up against modern high tech military hardware. The Gulf Wars demonstrated that tanks that were designed to subjugate local populations in East Germany weren't really much good against laser guided ordinance directed from surveillance satellites.

Just recently we saw a Russian jet fly into Turkish airspace and not come back out. The Russian military are great at taking on civillians in Aleppo but I'm not sure that they would do as well against a load of F15s.

[Justin Smith]

There are dozens of not hundreds of issues at election time. Not getting an issue into everybody's top 3 doesn't make it unimportant.

Try asking people whether those who make their laws should be accountable to them through the democratic process. See where it ranks then.

 

No it doesn`t, but, by definition, it makes it relatively unimportant. I have never known any subject cause so much ill feeling, divisiveness, uncertainty, certain effect on inflation (if my business`s suppliers are anything to go by), increase in hate crime etc etc. Most people who voted leave are perfectly decent, but it certainly has given the far right wing low life a new confidence hasn`t it ? Basically, or a subject that was relatively unimportant to the great majority of people one would have to conclude that for most people, it would not be worth it.

 

---------- Post added 16-12-2016 at 15:01 ----------

 

Just how many concerns is a person allowed to have? Perhaps you just need to change the record.

I'm concerned about education, health, security, immigration etc. That doesn't mean I can't be concerned about the EU. The same applies to everyone else.

Really if that is your best shot you should give up now.

.

 

When I used to talk to people what mattered to them, in all the elections, I can quite honestly say the EU was never mentioned. That poll is just yet more proof. I would say that it`s yourself who wants to realise that 18 months ago most people were not that interested in the EU. Immigration yes, but the EU, no.

Funnily enough I`ve just discussed this with my work colleague, he agreed, hardly anyone went round saying they thought the EU was even worth discussing, apart from the standard "straight bananas" urban myths.

 

I read Private Eye and I'm looking forward to getting out of the EU.

 

Just so long as you don`t read the Express / Mail / Sun, because if they`re your source of facts about the EU, you`d be very misinformed.

Looking forward to getting out of the EU ? From eth way you`re talking, I`d like to know how you think it`s directly going to make your life better......

Edited December 16, 2016 by Justin Smith