hush Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Some people obviously have changed their minds http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Sunderland-Brexit-e1481556036564.jpg Oh well if it's in The Sunderland Echo it must be right. It is on a parr with the Star as a source of reliable data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biotechpete Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Oh well if it's in The Sunderland Echo it must be right. It is on a parr with the Star as a source of reliable data. If we are comparing reliable sources, I'll take any paper over some 'people I know' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apelike Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) 1. We do not vote a government in. We only vote for an MP. The MPs decide the make-up of the government. That is just being pedantic and arguing for arguments sake. Yes we do vote for an MP but that MP belongs to a political party and if enough from that party get voted in then it forms a government. So we effectively vote in a government. 2. In parliamentary democracy the government only derives it's democratic legitimacy from the legislature (MPs). The executive is answerable to the legislature so in fact we are ruled by parliament and not the government. No, we are ruled by the government in charge with parliaments help. Does the opposition in parliament also rule? 3. Parliament can debate any issue without the government putting it on the table. For instance private members' bills can, in theory, be put forward, debated and made law without the involvement of government. I don't dispute that parliament can debate any issue if the speaker allows it. But.. can you cite a case where that "in theory" of yours has actually been put into practice. 4. It is not yet clear whether legally article 50 is reversible. In order for the government to negotiate a final settlement of Brexit independently and parliament, and for parliament to vote, it would need to be so. If it is not, parliament must debate and agree the acceptable limits/terms before A50 is triggered as this would necessarily lead to a change of our laws, which the executive is not entitled to enact without parliamentary agreement. Parliament do not get a say on the terms beforehand as the terms cannot be discussed until after A50 is triggered. Those terms are up to the EU and the government to decide once A50 is triggered. In addition there has been a case brought at the high court in Dublin to attempt to get the European Court to rule on the matter too. The EU cannot rule on it, simples.. Just to add.. All the high court has said so far is that the government cannot use its executive powers and Royal prerogative to trigger A50, and that parliament must be consulted and agree to trigger A50. That is almost certainly going to happen even though a small percentage of MP's say they will oppose it. Edited December 22, 2016 by apelike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamston Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) You seem to prove my point. Uneducated. If you actually read a bit more, you'll understand the legal ramifications if we do not get this right now. Have you noticed the High Court ruling and then the subsequent Supreme Court hearing the case? Did you also notice the arguments presented by the devolved nations? If the Supreme Court rules that the devolved governments need to give their consent for Brexit to happen, what then? And you missed my point or lack the intellect to understand. Well done for knowing there are legal challenges against the wishes of the democratic voters, being carried out. ---------- Post added 22-12-2016 at 08:10 ---------- It does amuse me that so many folk seem to imagine that anyone who voted to leave the EU didn't understand the question or was duped. I know of no one who has changed their minds. They just want the government to get on with getting us out. They like to use the word 'uneducated' Edited December 22, 2016 by Gamston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Cid Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 They like to use the word 'uneducated' And the same goes for Trump. I wouldnt disagree too much, but I would use the word poor. The poor think immigration is a negative for their own circumstances. It is, but voting leave or Trump will achieve very little. Trump and leave are now saying that the things they said, it wasnt a promise. Will the USA put up trade barriers, will there be spare cash for the NHS, will immigration be lower? Nothing as yet, I am still waiting. Immigration is higher. Brexit means uncertainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Hey thanks for proving my point for fitting yourself up 100% as the stereotype I mentioned. Actually the situation is backed up by the opinion polls which show virtually no movement since the referendum https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/8e293lt9rf/Eurotrack_October_Trackers_Website.pdf If there was a referendum on [COUNTRY's] membership of the European Union, how would you vote? I would vote to remain a member of the European Union 44% I would vote to leave the European Union 43% I would not vote 6% Don’t know 7% I think you will find that we can and are negotiating trade deals around the world. There is absolutely nothing to stop us. We shouldn't really sign them off before we leave the EU, but there is nothing whatsoever to stop the deals being thrashed out ready to be signed off the day after we leave. I don't recognise the address in that link, where did you dig that up? It seems to be at odds with every other post referendum poll conducted. You're quite right, deals could be 'ready' to be formed. So, how's that working out, do we have any ready. Have we even started negotiating any? Do we even know if we'll be in the single market or not? I await your dismal answer with, well, I don't, because I already know the answer actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hush Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 (edited) They like to use the word 'uneducated' Yes I had noticed the level of insults has increased. I suppose some have lost the referendun, the arguement and the moral high ground. Imagine their pain. ---------- Post added 22-12-2016 at 09:59 ---------- I don't recognise the address in that link, where did you dig that up? It seems to be at odds with every other post referendum poll conducted. You probably just need to look. YouGov polls generally say YouGov on the title. It's a dead give away really. Here's another. https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/lipxi83rmo/Eurotrack_GB_Full_Website.pdf If there was a referendum on British membership of the European Union, how would you vote? I would vote to remain a member of the European Union 45% I would vote to leave the European Union 45% I would not vote 4% Don’t know 6% Would you like the BMG polls as well? Edited December 22, 2016 by hush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I'm not in the habit of clicking odd looking urls. Uneducated isn't an insult. And it's like all statistical things a generalisation. The fact is that people with only GCSE level education were far more likely to vote exit than those with degree level education. Sorry if that offends anyone, but it's a fact. I notice that you carefully avoided telling us just how many deals have been set up ready for our exit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hush Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 I notice that you carefully avoided telling us just how many deals have been set up ready for our exit... I was leaving that untill your exasperation levels overflowed a bit more. By the way. Here's a BMG polling report http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/tories-best-party-handle-brexit/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamston Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 And the same goes for Trump. I wouldnt disagree too much, but I would use the word poor. The poor think immigration is a negative for their own circumstances. It is, but voting leave or Trump will achieve very little. Trump and leave are now saying that the things they said, it wasnt a promise. Will the USA put up trade barriers, will there be spare cash for the NHS, will immigration be lower? Nothing as yet, I am still waiting. Immigration is higher. Brexit means uncertainty. Trump won mainly because Mrs Clinton was a poor candidate. People wanted a change on both sides of the Atlantic, which is also one reason why both Leave and Trump won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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