unbeliever Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 I meant more the general slide towards populism and the slide away from facts based policies. A prediction is not a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) A prediction is not a fact.I'm not seeing where El Cid mentioned "predictions". El Cid referred to "fact based policies", contextually in contrast and opposition to ideology based policies ('populism'). Surely you won't deny that Theresa May is currently pushing ideological policies? Because the facts about UK immigration have been discussed until the cows came home pre-referendum (and again since), and are incontrovertible: pre-referendum, and still, the UK welcomes more visa-requiring non-EU immigrants, than free-moving EU migrants. Edited January 20, 2017 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 I'm not seeing where El Cid mentioned "predictions". El Cid referred to "fact based policies", contextually in contrast and opposition to ideology based policies ('populism'). That's not what populism means. Much of what has been thrown round as "facts" in the referendum campaign, are in fact predictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 It's not outrage. Your inferring tone which isn't there. Do see any emoticons, bold, upper case for whole words, large fonts or exclamation marks? Your question is invalid because it includes a false premise. I'm not saying that the BoE, Treasury and IMF predictions were wrong, they are And I asked twice for you to show me where they say that and the reasons. Since I don't have it I shall dismiss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacktari Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 If everyone who voted Brexit didn't like immigrants, we'd have a BNP Prime Minister. We have a PM who is running scared of the racists. Farage et al are the powers behind the throne at present. The indecent haste to placate them worries me. It makes me think there is more to this pandering than meets the eye. The events which take place after Trump becomes USA President, and the headlong dash of this government to unencumber itself of its responsibilities to the EU and the people of the UK will be an education for us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) That's not what populism means. No? What does it mean, then? Much of what has been thrown round as "facts" in the referendum campaign, are in fact predictions.Refer my late edit in my previous post. The central plank of Brexit interpretation by the government is, quite clearly, immigration. Rightly or wrongly predicted, whatever economic Armageddon could have befallen the UK by now, or has yet to, is an irrelevant afterthought: borders *must* be controlled. Do I need to remind you of the UK's immigration facts? Numbers, provenance, visa conditions, limits on accessibility to public funds/services, employment & contribution statistics, <etc.>? Edited January 20, 2017 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 And I asked twice for you to show me where they say that and the reasons. Since I don't have it I shall dismiss it. You asked about 2019. You were surely saying that we don't know whether they were right because it's too early. I responded by pointing out that they've already admitted that they were wrong. Apologies if I misunderstood you. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38528595 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-upgrades-2017-uk-growth-but-downgrades-2018-a7529536.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/25/brexit-vote-will-not-dent-economy-this-year-as-uk-growth-forecas/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/25/brexit-vote-will-not-dent-economy-this-year-as-uk-growth-forecas/ I could go on. ---------- Post added 20-01-2017 at 11:47 ---------- No? What does it mean, then? Refer my late edit in my previous post. The central plank of Brexit interpretation by the government is, quite clearly, immigration. Rightly or wrongly predicted, whatever economic Armageddon could have befallen the UK by now, or has yet to, is an irrelevant afterthought: borders *must* be controlled. Do I need to remind you of the UK's immigration facts? Numbers, provenance, visa conditions, limits on accessibility to public funds/services, employment & contribution statistics, <etc.>? Populism means doing what the people want rather than what you personally judge best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 No? What does it mean, then? Refer my late edit in my previous post. The central plank of Brexit interpretation by the government is, quite clearly, immigration. Rightly or wrongly predicted, whatever economic Armageddon could have befallen the UK by now, or has yet to, is an irrelevant afterthought: borders *must* be controlled. Do I need to remind you of the UK's immigration facts? Numbers, provenance, visa conditions, limits on accessibility to public funds/services, employment & contribution statistics, <etc.>? I'm not sure of what reply you will get. I'me bowing out now - he's on ignore for the time being as it's getting tediously silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted January 20, 2017 Author Share Posted January 20, 2017 I'm not sure of what reply you will get. I'me bowing out now - he's on ignore for the time being as it's getting tediously silly. You posted this below my reply to you. Everybody else seems to recognise that the pre-vote economic pessimism was way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinfoilhat Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 I ran with your post to exemplify my point The answer is in education, I know it is a torrid point to put across, but, with a few notable exceptions I am yet to be convinced that the majority of brexit (and indeed Remain) voters actually understood more than the very basic slogans about what their vote meant. The country is in a habit of voting against - 'because we don't like it as it is'. But that dislike often stems from a misinterpretation of their direct surroundings. I spoke to someone recently who riled against immigration, saying they took all 'our' jobs. To the question if he knew anybody in his immediate surrounding that was unemployed his answer was: Yes, my brother in law, he is a scrounger and hasn't worked in more than two of his fifty years. A bit more asking and it turns out his son was the first in his family to attend university and at 22 already earned more than the chap himself. But hey, the country is going to the dogs apparently, have to rile against something! At least education (as in proper education) gives people like this the tools to arm themselves with information. I'm not sure education is enough if the infrastructure and opportunities and indeed drive aren't there. I recall a BBC article just after the referendum where they looked at two towns Brighton being one, I don't remember the other one. Brighton voted remain in large numbers and one person remarked it's because of their better education. This bit stays with me "we got the best educated baristas in the country!" They, I think, were using it as a badge of honour but I took it as damning with faint praise. £9k a year for three years to go "do you want chocolate on top?" I'll see if I can find a link. Leaving the EU won't fix it but the country's problems run deeper than lack of education. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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