I1L2T3 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I think this is fantasy land. yes we can unilaterally withdraw but it would be chaos and do us great damage. The ECJ can rule and if we choose to ignore it fine, but that has one of the most law abiding nations in the world throwing diplomatic relations and its reputation for respecting international agreements down the toilet. We then have to deal with these people after or doesnt that matter? Its clear we have liabilities because we are more like joint owners or shareholders than simple club members. Have just looked at a few articles on the calculation and can see why we will have to pay something. I think I will wait and see what the constitutional experts, analysts and EC lawyers have to say. I dont mind if you talk to the other one im not invested in this thread. So, so true. Having fought two world wars striving for stability in Europe the extreme Brexiters want the UK to destabilise the continent. They actively want to damage the EU and the countries in it. They want the EU to collapse to validate their beliefs. Unreal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 So, so true. Having fought two world wars striving for stability in Europe the extreme Brexiters want the UK to destabilise the continent. They actively want to damage the EU and the countries in it. They want the EU to collapse to validate their beliefs. Unreal. I have stated multiple times I wish the best for our European friends, but I think the project can only be saved by far greater integration and I want no part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey104 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 So, so true. Having fought two world wars striving for stability in Europe the extreme Brexiters want the UK to destabilise the continent. They actively want to damage the EU and the countries in it. They want the EU to collapse to validate their beliefs. Unreal. I think you are pushing it a bit too far with that comment. So far you have made far more coherent arguments that I could have but for me you have lost some of that credibility. Millions of men, women and children died during those two wars to fight against oppression and for peace. Please carry on making your argument but do not pretend that the majority of people who voted for en exit from the EU are wishing to destabilise Europe and then making that correlation to the loss of millions of lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I have stated multiple times I wish the best for our European friends, but I think the project can only be saved by far greater integration and I want no part of it. If you want the best then why are you stating as fact that we will make no ongoing financial contribution to their medium-term success? The reality is we will do that, and that by doing so it will be best for us too. ---------- Post added 04-02-2017 at 21:11 ---------- I think you are pushing it a bit too far with that comment. So far you have made far more coherent arguments that I could have but for me you have lost some of that credibility. Millions of men, women and children died during those two wars to fight against oppression and for peace. Please carry on making your argument but do not pretend that the majority of people who voted for en exit from the EU are wishing to destabilise Europe and then making that correlation to the loss of millions of lives. Your argument only works if you portray the EU as some sort of authoritarian and oppressive state that does not want peace It isn't like that and it never will be. It has flaws and it is not perfectly democratic (in certain aspects but neither is the UK) but to try and argue that by leaving the EU we are escaping from some 1930s-style autocratic tyranny is utter nonsense. That was the precise argument used extensively in the referendum campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 If you want the best then why are you stating as fact that we will make no ongoing financial contribution to their medium-term success? The reality is we will do that, and that by doing so it will be best for us too. I state my opinion that we will not continue to pay because I think that's what will happen. I don't see why the EU government, with it's budget of over £100 billion, can't make arrangements in 2 years and change to cover or absorb the removal of 10% net from that total. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I think you are pushing it a bit too far with that comment. So far you have made far more coherent arguments that I could have but for me you have lost some of that credibility. Millions of men, women and children died during those two wars to fight against oppression and for peace. Please carry on making your argument but do not pretend that the majority of people who voted for en exit from the EU are wishing to destabilise Europe and then making that correlation to the loss of millions of lives. I would disagree as well. What I would say is that there are plenty who want full Brexit as fast as possible and think this can be achieved easily with very few consequences or they dont care. Simply leaving and going to WTO will end up with everyone losing because so many issues will be left unresolved. There are also people who would like to see the EU fail as an evil empire. ---------- Post added 04-02-2017 at 21:25 ---------- I state my opinion that we will not continue to pay because I think that's what will happen. I don't see why the EU government, with it's budget of over £100 billion, can't make arrangements in 2 years and change to cover or absorb the removal of 10% net from that total. Because the liabilities are about commitments we have already made that extrend beyond the time we leave. It will be up to the lawyers to confirm these are our liabilities and the accountants to agree on the amount. We should just pay what we owe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 (edited) Because the liabilities are about commitments we have already made that extrend beyond the time we leave. It will be up to the lawyers to confirm these are our liabilities and the accountants to agree on the amount. We should just pay what we owe. If we share in liabilities we must surely also share in dividends and assets. https://www.ft.com/content/bb899c94-8715-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade As I say it's all too messy doing it this way. Far better for everybody to just walk away. Edited February 4, 2017 by unbeliever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
999tigger Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 If we share in liabilities we must surely also share in dividends and assets. https://www.ft.com/content/bb899c94-8715-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade As I say it's all too messy doing it this way. Far better for everybody to just walk away. Thats ridiculous claiming its far too messy. Just because its complicated doesnt mean you give up especially when there are billions involved, never mind sorting the actual agreement. the UK should pay money it has agreed to pay out and honour its commitments, some of those extend beyond leaving, but have veen made whilst a member. The UK will not sacrifice its reputation for honouring its agreements by trying to get away from its genuine liabilities UK lawyers and accountants will argue to minimise those and pay only what we are obliged to do as getting the best deal for the government. We will also claim our share of assets and offset those against liabilities. the FT was looking at 2.7 billion euros but would be more after a revaluation. Much lower than liabilities. The EU will not stand idly by if we just walk away (it wont happen) in which case we can have a gtrade war because people cant reach an agreement. Everyone loses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 If we share in liabilities we must surely also share in dividends and assets. https://www.ft.com/content/bb899c94-8715-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade As I say it's all too messy doing it this way. Far better for everybody to just walk away. Paywall!!!! What assets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 4, 2017 Author Share Posted February 4, 2017 Thats ridiculous claiming its far too messy. Just because its complicated doesnt mean you give up especially when there are billions involved, never mind sorting the actual agreement. the UK should pay money it has agreed to pay out and honour its commitments, some of those extend beyond leaving, but have veen made whilst a member. The UK will not sacrifice its reputation for honouring its agreements by trying to get away from its genuine liabilities UK lawyers and accountants will argue to minimise those and pay only what we are obliged to do as getting the best deal for the government. We will also claim our share of assets and offset those against liabilities. the FT was looking at 2.7 billion euros but would be more after a revaluation. Much lower than liabilities. The EU will not stand idly by if we just walk away (it wont happen) in which case we can have a gtrade war because people cant reach an agreement. Everyone loses. I think that in the cold light of day, everybody will agree it pragmatic to walk away rather than trying to resolve fractional ownership of a myriad of assets and liabilities. ---------- Post added 04-02-2017 at 21:52 ---------- Paywall!!!! What assets? https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjCstrTtvfRAhXqDsAKHc2NB1kQFggcMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcontent%2Fbb899c94-8715-11e6-a75a-0c4dce033ade&usg=AFQjCNEpMNszVpB4zd6yTUblXJIVOZfD-Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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