unbeliever Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Surrender is not the way forward. You can admit defeat if you want. I never will. No Surrender. Socialist or not, you're clearly not a democrat. Let me guess: You deem the democratic process slightly flawed and therefore declare it invalid and advance yourself the moral authority to disregard it on that basis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalga Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Okay, but it was put about by the remain side (of which May was a part) months ago. I suspect that the government are playing the expectations game now. If they do well in the negotiations after playing down their chances then they look very clever. It's the Scotty effect. There are numerous ways that UK based banks can keep on trading with the EU as normal after Brexit,so the EU would still get their finance,and really,that takes away the proverbial UK bargaining chip in negotiations because it will not be a factor.Also,if the big banks will still be doing business as normal,and not affected by Brexit,the UK government has more responsibility to the ordinary man/woman who voted for Brexit to improve their lives and to deliver that for them,or be faced with an accusation that the money people have been looked after while the ordinary man has not seen the benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Surrender is not the way forward. You can admit defeat if you want. I never will. No Surrender. Addition, The more I read your post, the less I believe it. Because people believe that racism is right, you seem to say, then we must accept their opinion? Because some people disagree with me, then I must accept their opinion? That is totally and utterly wrong. if people are racist or disagree with me, then they must be reeducated until they think clearly. Because at present you are being overwhelmed by articulate fascists does not mean fascism is correct. The leaders of the fascist are always articulate intelligent men. Mussolini, Hitler etc were all that, but it does not make them good men, or heroes to be followed. I'm not saying racism or facism is ok at all, just that those people who voted for it believe it's the right thing for them and the country. That's what we have to overcome. We have to find a way to show them it's neither the best for them or the country. Just shouting at them and saying they are idiots (which they maybe) isn't going to help. It's not surrender, but it's not the charge of the light brigade either. I'm just going to highlight a section of your post. I don't know if you meant it how it sounds but it really undermines any further points you make... if people are racist or disagree with me, then they must be reeducated until they think clearly. That's straight out of 1984, so slightly ironic that you are calling Brexit supports fascists when trying to control the thoughts of others is right up there with Big Brother Edited February 10, 2017 by sgtkate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacktari Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Socialist or not, you're clearly not a democrat. Let me guess: You deem the democratic process slightly flawed and therefore declare it invalid and advance yourself the moral authority to disregard it on that basis? Yes, you could put it that way. it clearly is not working as it should. You are an articulate and erudite man. For this time the masses seem to have voted in your favour. Don't try to kid me that you have any respect for their opinion, because I am sure you don't. For the time being, as Stalin (was it), said they are just useful idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Yes, you could put it that way. it clearly is not working as it should. You are an articulate and erudite man. For this time the masses seem to have voted in your favour. Don't try to kid me that you have any respect for their opinion, because I am sure you don't. For the time being, as Stalin (was it), said they are just useful idiots. So unless people vote as you want them to then democracy is not working? Is that your argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Democracy is not about always doing what the majority wish at any cost to minority groups. Many democracies require exceptional changes to only be enacted after a supramajority of a certain size, 66% or 80% for example, to ensure some stability and that fundamental changes are not flip flopped back and forth on the basis of small majority wins (for example <2% in favour of something). But of course you knew this already unbeliever, it's just more convenient to pretend that democracies always act on a simple majority view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Yes, you could put it that way. it clearly is not working as it should. You are an articulate and erudite man. For this time the masses seem to have voted in your favour. Don't try to kid me that you have any respect for their opinion, because I am sure you don't. For the time being, as Stalin (was it), said they are just useful idiots. Stain was an internationalist and a socialist. He was not a Fascist. Much like the ethos which drives the EU, but with a lot more narcism and genocide. Yes I do respect the people. I lost the AV referendum. I accept the will of the people and I no longer argue for its implementation, nor for PR which is in my view rejected by association. It's not what I would have chosen, but Vox Populi Vox Dei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclone Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Even if someone voted for Brexit because they are racist, they STILL believe that they are voting for something that will make the UK better. No-one is going to actively vote for something they believe will ruin the country, people just don't do that. On the contrary, people will vote for things that somehow provide them with advantage (or they think will) at a cost to the rest of the country. I don't for 1 minute believe that most voters vote with the best interests of the country in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Democracy is not about always doing what the majority wish at any cost to minority groups. Many democracies require exceptional changes to only be enacted after a supramajority of a certain size, 66% or 80% for example, to ensure some stability and that fundamental changes are not flip flopped back and forth on the basis of small majority wins (for example <2% in favour of something). But of course you knew this already unbeliever, it's just more convenient to pretend that democracies always act on a simple majority view. No I accept that a functional democracy must be careful not a trample on the minority. But in the case of a simple binary choice like Brexit there is no valid compromise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obelix Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 if people are racist or disagree with me, then they must be reeducated until they think clearly. The mantra of Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin et al...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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