Cyclone Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Continuing to argue in favour of something, and attempting to change opinions is not somehow "disrespecting" a previous vote. Not arguing in favour of a belief you hold though, that's disrespecting yourself. Edit - I wasn't insulted, don't worry, I'm just bemused by how you've formed this opinion, I can't see any logic to it. How do you square this with general elections every 4 years? Do you not allow yourself to vote for any party other than the one that won last time? Because that was the will of the people last time it was checked? Or have you somehow made a justification that we can change political parties every few years, but we can't reconsider other important issues more than once a generation? Edited February 10, 2017 by Cyclone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L00b Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Yes, I did believe that you were a citizen and not a politician. If you're puzzled as to why I choose you for this question, it's simply because you come across as someone who is intelligent, knows about economics, a proponent for being in the EU, and a regular (enthusiastic?) contributor to this thread.Thank you for your kind words. In the light of this it surprises and disappoints me to discover that you have no hopes or ideas on where the EU project might go, or perhaps what it could look like in say 20 years time.I'm sorry I disappointed you, I suppose I was (and still am) feeling a bit (alright, fairly) sanguine about leaving the UK behind after 20 years. I had a special telephone conversation upcoming at the time of that reply, I've since held that phone conversation, and I've made up my mind during and after the phone conversation. We're going. That's it, die is cast. It will be painful. But the sum total of the circumstances being what it is, it's the right thing to do, for me professionally, and therefore and by extension, for my family who depends on me. I see nothing good for the UK or for the EU medium- to long-term, so long as they both remain pincer-played by powerful kleptocracies in charge in the US and Russia, and so long as China sits on the fence. If anything, I see a Russia-China axis eventually trumping the US-EU axis in the global pecking order. London might still do well out of that, as a Westernised Singapore loaded to the gills with amoral banksters. But I see the rest of the UK becoming a West European version of Mexico, whilst the EU reduces in size and influence, as Putin gradually increases his Western buffer back to Cold War scope at its expense. I certainly wouldn't like to be living in any of the Baltic States right now. I see the regain and increasingly acceptable face of populist nationalisms opportunistically riding on the human misery which they inflicted under different political banners, eventually ending up just like last time. France and Germany (and the Poles long before them) wouldn't let Putin dent the EU beyond a certain point (they'll let the Ukraine, and then the Baltics go, maybe bits of Balkans as well) and then, regardless of whether NATO still exists and whether the US does something or not, with the next Putin maskirovka à la Georgia/Crimea/Ukraine starting to play out in eastern Poland, I'd expect war in Continental Europe again, in mine and my child's life time. Unless the populo-nationalists here, there and everywhere somehow get made to put a sock in it. But so far, it's not looking anything remotely like it. In that context, Brexit isn't a starting or an end point, neither was Trump's election, nor would Le Pen's. They're just ticked boxes along the way. Jingoistic regression is the order of the day, here and most elsewhere it seems. Historically, it never ends well. No reason why it suddenly should this time around. 'Bet you're sorry you asked, now Edited February 10, 2017 by L00b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 Continuing to argue in favour of something, and attempting to change opinions is not somehow "disrespecting" a previous vote. Not arguing in favour of a belief you hold though, that's disrespecting yourself. Edit - I wasn't insulted, don't worry, I'm just bemused by how you've formed this opinion, I can't see any logic to it. Reason tells me that PR is better. But reason also tells me that the collective judgement of the people is superior to my own. Therefore I must be wrong in my reasoning. I am of course disappointed to be wrong. And there is a slightly cross voice in my head which insists that I am not wrong. But there you have it. It is possible that things will change with enough time, but I don't think anything like enough time has passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacktari Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Reason tells me that PR is better. But reason also tells me that the collective judgement of the people is superior to my own. Therefore I must be wrong in my reasoning. I am of course disappointed to be wrong. And there is a slightly cross voice in my head which insists that I am not wrong. But there you have it. It is possible that things will change with enough time, but I don't think anything like enough time has passed. I am sure you do not believe that. I have read your posts over the last few weeks. No one of your sense thinks that the average persons intellect is equal, let alone superior, to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 I am sure you do not believe that. I have read your posts over the last few weeks. No one of your sense thinks that the average persons intellect is equal, let alone superior, to their own. My intelligence might be above average, but I can't be sure (I've never had an IQ test). That's not the point. The collective judgement of some 45 million of my fellow electors is surely superior to my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacktari Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 My intelligence might be above average, but I can't be sure (I've never had an IQ test). That's not the point. The collective judgement of some 45 million of my fellow electors is surely superior to my own. I disagree. Some are leaders, the vast majority are followers. Society could not function without leadership. It is the quality of that leadership which we contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgtkate Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 My intelligence might be above average, but I can't be sure (I've never had an IQ test). That's not the point. The collective judgement of some 45 million of my fellow electors is surely superior to my own. Yes, if they were collectively pooled of course. But they aren't. And we all squabble and disagree over whether the AMRC is in Rotherham or Sheffield so I wouldn't actually agree that 45 million people are brighter than a random 1 person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 I think that the fact that democracies are so successful in comparison to other systems of government is strong evidence that the collective judgement of the people is superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacktari Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I think that the fact that democracies are so successful in comparison to other systems of government is strong evidence that the collective judgement of the people is superior. That was proved wrong on 23rd June 2016. The greatest test of the combined intelligence of the UK. And far and above the greatest indicator of its total failure. None above a handful even know what they voted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey19 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Shouldn't you all be at work making our country prosper instead of arguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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