woahthere Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 er excuse me??? who are you calling racist?? wind ya neck in:loopy: Go on then what did you mean. Bet you can't defend it without sounding racist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 They do, and they will be welcome. Your sort of remark shows how little you understand of the demands of the British economy. I worked with lots of IT companies and some of them are absolutely desperate to get more Indian staff in as they can't fill the vacancies they have. And don't be mistaken, these are 30K a year jobs to start with. A big part of the problem is that after 2000 many big IT employers stopped taking on apprentices and graduates. They were bringing in ready-built workers from India instead. Tens of thousands of them, year on year. Only relatively recently have the rules forced companies to pay these workers at levels at or close to what EU workers earn. Before then we had workers coming in and paid in kind for a lot of their 'wage'. I know how that worked. I managed 30 of them at one of my previous companies. One of the big drivers for bring people across was knowledge share so that work could be taken back to India. I've seen lots of that happen and whole departments close. I's not just IT though. Lots of back office functions and customer contact centres are fair game. Maybe a million quality jobs must have been lost over the past 15 years because of these processes. And the sad thing is this was controllable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 A big part of the problem is that after 2000 many big IT employers stopped taking on apprentices and graduates. They were bringing in ready-built workers from India instead. Tens of thousands of them, year on year. Only relatively recently have the rules forced companies to pay these workers at levels at or close to what EU workers earn. Before then we had workers coming in and paid in kind for a lot of their 'wage'. I know how that worked. I managed 30 of them at one of my previous companies. One of the big drivers for bring people across was knowledge share so that work could be taken back to India. I've seen lots of that happen and whole departments close. I's not just IT though. Lots of back office functions and customer contact centres are fair game. Maybe a million quality jobs must have been lost over the past 15 years because of these processes. And the sad thing is this was controllable. Jobs lost or just being done elsewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 A big part of the problem is that after 2000 many big IT employers stopped taking on apprentices and graduates. They were bringing in ready-built workers from India instead. Tens of thousands of them, year on year. Only relatively recently have the rules forced companies to pay these workers at levels at or close to what EU workers earn. Before then we had workers coming in and paid in kind for a lot of their 'wage'. I know how that worked. I managed 30 of them at one of my previous companies. One of the big drivers for bring people across was knowledge share so that work could be taken back to India. I've seen lots of that happen and whole departments close. I's not just IT though. Lots of back office functions and customer contact centres are fair game. Maybe a million quality jobs must have been lost over the past 15 years because of these processes. And the sad thing is this was controllable. I've come across the underbelly of this phenomena as well, but found it rare. Most of the IT companies I dealt with were heavily investing into R&D and were searching high and low for (British) talent but couldn't find it. Most guys I know that are EU trained (including UK) as developers/sysadmins etc. were snapped up by the big boys and banks, draining the level 'below' of talent. Simple fact is that there was no way the UK was ever going to train the amount of IT engineers it needed to cover demand in the time it was necessary to do so. I doubt your figure of 1 million jobs lost as well, I'd argue that in the past 15 years a million jobs in IT were created compared to the previous level. Certainly if you include Ireland (Dublin is booming). I don't know of any well-skilled IT engineer without a job by choice. I do know several who are by choice - they've made enough and have ventured into different directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) I've come across the underbelly of this phenomena as well, but found it rare. Most of the IT companies I dealt with were heavily investing into R&D and were searching high and low for (British) talent but couldn't find it. Most guys I know that are EU trained (including UK) as developers/sysadmins etc. were snapped up by the big boys and banks, draining the level 'below' of talent. Simple fact is that there was no way the UK was ever going to train the amount of IT engineers it needed to cover demand in the time it was necessary to do so. I doubt your figure of 1 million jobs lost as well, I'd argue that in the past 15 years a million jobs in IT were created compared to the previous level. Certainly if you include Ireland (Dublin is booming). I don't know of any well-skilled IT engineer without a job by choice. I do know several who are by choice - they've made enough and have ventured into different directions. This is how I see it. There's nothing wrong with getting an Indian to do a job if they'll do it for less. That's what's supposed to happen. Protectionism doesn't work and the poorer countries of the world deserve a chance to grow and catch up with us. We'll grow too. Just they'll grow faster. This is exactly what's supposed to happen. Both morally and pragmatically. Edited November 7, 2016 by unbeliever I can't spell it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Jobs lost or just being done elsewhere? Lost to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbeliever Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Lost to the UK. Not really a loss then. Just fair competition in which the Indians are doing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I've come across the underbelly of this phenomena as well, but found it rare. Most of the IT companies I dealt with were heavily investing into R&D and were searching high and low for (British) talent but couldn't find it. Most guys I know that are EU trained (including UK) as developers/sysadmins etc. were snapped up by the big boys and banks, draining the level 'below' of talent. Simple fact is that there was no way the UK was ever going to train the amount of IT engineers it needed to cover demand in the time it was necessary to do so. I doubt your figure of 1 million jobs lost as well, I'd argue that in the past 15 years a million jobs in IT were created compared to the previous level. Certainly if you include Ireland (Dublin is booming). I don't know of any well-skilled IT engineer without a job by choice. I do know several who are by choice - they've made enough and have ventured into different directions. The million jobs I estimated was not just IT. It's everything service related including call centres, iT, back office etc.... over 15 years a million jobs is 60,000 a year. I'd be certain that is close to being correct. ---------- Post added 07-11-2016 at 21:41 ---------- Not really a loss then. Just fair competition in which the Indians are doing well. It's a loss to the UK. Not just the jobs but also the culture of companies drawing their trainees and graduates from the UK. Once you break that culture and the continuity of it then it's hard to recreate. All those people in poor areas that voted for Brexit won't share your view. They are asking to be protected, not fed to the wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzijlstra Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The million jobs I estimated was not just IT. It's everything service related including call centres, iT, back office etc.... over 15 years a million jobs is 60,000 a year. I'd be certain that is close to being correct. You aren't correct, there are more jobs in this country now then ever before. Particularly in Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I1L2T3 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 This is how I see it. There's nothing wrong with getting an Indian to do a job if they'll do it for less. That's what's supposed to happen. Protectionism doesn't work and the poorer countries of the world deserve a chance to grow and catch up with us. We'll grow too. Just they'll grow faster. This is exactly what's supposed to happen. Both morally and pragmatically. Again this fundamentalist approach is not going to go down well in Hartlepool, Burnley etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts