The Consequences of Brexit (part 2)

[I1L2T3]

Good grief, we both think the same thing. It could be called , The Common Market.

If we'd thought of that a few years ago there wouldn't have been a referendum and even if there had the result would probably have been to remain.

 

My position on this has been consistent. I'm no big fan of the EU. The EU is only of any use to the UK for trading purposes, and for scientific, industrial and academic collaboration. And there is that element of shared culture too. We are Europeans. The political and fiscal side of it is not for us. There is little appetite for it here.

 

My hope was always continued EU emembership but in a two speed EU where we effectively stepped completely away from the political side of things and had definitive and permanent opt-outs on the fiscal side of things. To be fair to Cameron I think the deal he brokered was a major step towards that.

 

As it happens we are going to end up with something similar IMO as the stupidty of hard Brexit will become ever clearer.

[phil752]

My position on this has been consistent. I'm no big fan of the EU. The EU is only of any use to the UK for trading purposes, and for scientific, industrial and academic collaboration. And there is that element of shared culture too. We are Europeans. The political and fiscal side of it is not for us. There is little appetite for it here.

 

My hope was always continued EU emembership but in a two speed EU where we effectively stepped completely away from the political side of things and had definitive and permanent opt-outs on the fiscal side of things. To be fair to Cameron I think the deal he brokered was a major step towards that.

 

As it happens we are going to end up with something similar IMO as the stupidty of hard Brexit will become ever clearer.

 

We can only hope, its what the country voted for after all

[apelike]

To be fair to Cameron I think the deal he brokered was a major step towards that.

 

Cameron didn't get that much of a deal that people seem to think and the majority of his proposals were also left unchanged.

 

---------- Post added 18-11-2016 at 22:35 ----------

 

We can only hope, its what the country voted for after all

 

The country voted to leave the EU and hopefully that will still happen.

Edited November 18, 2016 by apelike

[phil752]

Cameron didn't get that much of a deal that people seem to think and the majority of his proposals are also unchanged.

 

---------- Post added 18-11-2016 at 22:35 ----------

 

 

The country voted to leave the EU and hopefully that will still happen.

 

imo, every party knows that if there is a u turn the political turmoil in 2010 would be unimaginable.

Edited November 18, 2016 by phil752

[I1L2T3]

Cameron didn't get that much of a deal that people seem to think and the majority of his proposals were also left unchanged.

 

What he achieved, in the event of a remain vote, was EU treaty change that enshrined the UK's right to resist ever closer union.

 

Think about that. The only argument that the Brexiters could use to counter it was that it wasn't legally binding. They knew that if it did become enshrined in a treaty it was the green light for an increasing number of UK opt-outs. Think three speed EU instead of two speed EU. Cameron negotiated emergency brakes on benefits and that would have been the first of many brakes that could have been introduced. The first of may opt-outs that diverged us from the EU core and would have set us on a slow motion track that would have probably led to quite an orderly logical Brexit over 10-20 years.

 

Let's be honest when it suited the Tory boys and girls on here they defended Cameron vociferously. Day in day out. When he negotiated something that was in the genuine best interests of the country they helped stab him in the back.

 

---------- Post added 19-11-2016 at 01:07 ----------

 

imo, every party knows that if there is a u turn the political turmoil in 2010 would be unimaginable.

 

Don't count on it. A u-turn might result in a huge collective sigh of relief

 

The level of calm that could ensue might be - to you - unimaginable.

[phil752]

What he achieved, in the event of a remain vote, was EU treaty change that enshrined the UK's right to resist ever closer union.

 

Think about that. The only argument that the Brexiters could use to counter it was that it wasn't legally binding. They knew that if it did become enshrined in a treaty it was the green light for an increasing number of UK opt-outs. Think three speed EU instead of two speed EU. Cameron negotiated emergency brakes on benefits and that would have been the first of many brakes that could have been introduced. The first of may opt-outs that diverged us from the EU core and would have set us on a slow motion track that would have probably led to quite an orderly logical Brexit over 10-20 years.

 

Let's be honest when it suited the Tory boys and girls on here they defended Cameron vociferously. Day in day out. When he negotiated something that was in the genuine best interests of the country they helped stab him in the back.

 

lets be honest tell me what he got in reality

[andyofborg]

lets be honest tell me what he got in reality

 

Cameron didn't get a lot but that was a mixture of his stupidity and events.

 

This was originally an exercise in conservative party management nothing more and nothing less.

 

Cameron embalked on this to shoot UKIP's fox

 

He hoped that the 2015 election would deliver another coalition and the dumping referendum would have been a concession to the Lib Dems. There would have been lots of crocodile tears but worth it for a strong national government.

 

Unfortunately, that didn't happen and he had to negotiate a deal. Even more unfortunately the negotiations came at a time the EU was trying to deal with the consequences of the west's military adventures and political failures in the middle east and north africa.

 

He probably could have got a better deal had he tried a bit harder but he didn't.

 

The Conservative Party has been tearing itself apart over the EU for 30 years and the referendum campaign would have left two unreconcilable factions regardless of the result so he ran a terrible campaign and hoped for the best.

[Gamston]

Cameron didn't get a lot but that was a mixture of his stupidity and events.

 

This was originally an exercise in conservative party management nothing more and nothing less.

 

Cameron embalked on this to shoot UKIP's fox

 

He hoped that the 2015 election would deliver another coalition and the dumping referendum would have been a concession to the Lib Dems. There would have been lots of crocodile tears but worth it for a strong national government.

 

Unfortunately, that didn't happen and he had to negotiate a deal. Even more unfortunately the negotiations came at a time the EU was trying to deal with the consequences of the west's military adventures and political failures in the middle east and north africa.

 

He probably could have got a better deal had he tried a bit harder but he didn't.

 

The Conservative Party has been tearing itself apart over the EU for 30 years and the referendum campaign would have left two unreconcilable factions regardless of the result so he ran a terrible campaign and hoped for the best.

I agree with most of your analysis. The EU migrant crisis, which escalated after the Conservatives won the 2015 General Election didn't do Cameron any favours.

 

Good luck to Mrs Merkel in next year's German elections. She will need it even more, now she has received Obama's blessing.

[Tomjames]

Do better to accept the vote and get on with it now. All this instability bad for everyone.

[I1L2T3]

I agree with most of your analysis. The EU migrant crisis, which escalated after the Conservatives won the 2015 General Election didn't do Cameron any favours.

 

Good luck to Mrs Merkel in next year's German elections. She will need it even more, now she has received Obama's blessing.

 

Merkel made three huge errors that influenced Brexit:

 

1. A lot of lefties including me and make no mistake about this are still very angry with the way the Greek people were treated by the EU core. Merkel was part of an excessively ruthless decision making clique.

 

2. The way she dealt with the migrant crisis like others have said.

 

3. The offhand treatment of Cameron when he tried to negotiate. They've got egg on their face now.