A better referendum?

[Fogey]

As a result of the referendum the government don't 'have to' do something about immigration. They can choose to apply for section 50, indeed they feel obliged to do so. But, as a party they were on the remain side and on the side of the status quo. It follows that they will try to keep things as near the same as possible. UKIP and a load of dissatisfied voters from other party's with their more extreme views won't get a look in.

 

The referendum result gave them an implied instruction to start those discussions. So they will negotiate and produce exit terms. Whatever you call it the General Election that follows that will be a referendum on those terms. And rightly so in my opinion. May might even call an election to give her a mandate to proceed.

 

Yanis Varoufakis put it very well "The victory for the leavers said 'put the cooker on, receipe to follow'. Lets see what kind of meal they make of it?

 

Indeed, I think I have said it on here before, the referendum was not a vote to stop immigration or reject EU rules, it was a vote on whether or not we should have a say on how those rules are made and what rules we would like to see implemented as a country. We might literally end up being subject to all the same rules and requirements of the EU past, present and future with no actual say in the forming of those rules beyond take it or leave it.

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:20 ----------

 

Every thing is on the table now. What I am trying to ask, since many think the referendum was Camerons biggest ****-up in his 6 years as PM, could he have asked a different question?

 

Cameron as a Tory had backed himself into a corner. He and his party and its big money supporters spent years developing a 'politics of envy' as a way of dividing and conquering the working class peoples with the ideas like foreigners getting loads of freebies under our tremendously unfair welfare system (a load of rubbish). Then suddenly he found himself trying to argue against his own well laid lies and he couldn't ultimately out slime himself and failed.

[area 51]

I didn't say you were a knuckle dragging dummy, I said I think most leavers are ignorant, - 'lacking in knowledge or information'. My own experience at university was to come to realise that it isn't just about getting good grades, it has a lot to do with attitude and approach, the ability to critically evaluate a situation and information to form logical and reasoned arguments and conclusions. You say that the university educated are bitter because the working class have not learned their place in the world, I think you are wrong, it is the working class that have appointed themselves a place and absolutely will not let go of it. You yourself admit you haven't voted to try and make your life or anyone else's better, but to make someone else's worse.

 

It sounds like you are the one that is bitter.

 

Do you really think that it will be university level educated people that will suffer most as a result of leaving the EU?

 

What other circumstances can you think of other than membership of the EU that have probably reduced your standard of living/pay e.t.c? Or have you pinned everything on the idea that it is indeed all the fault of foreigners?

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:00 ----------

 

 

Specifically on the point I was making it shows that the higher your level of educational attainment the more likely you are to have voted remain.

 

I'm not sure I agree that it shows people voted in accordance with their interests, more that they voted on the basis of their willingness/ability to research the facts rather than on the facts themselves.

 

I did not blame it on foreigners,i never mentioned that once so do not try and label me a bigot that is what all the remainers say.My argument is with the EU itself and the rules that they made.I probably would have done the same as those migrant workers did and headed for the richest country if i was poor and with no job.My point is that it has made the average worker worse off.You appear to be insinuating that if you are not smart enough to better yourself then you deserve everything you get,inbetween the lines.I guessed you had been to university even though i did not know because you fitted the usual thinking of a university graduate.I have put one or two bosses at work who had been to university in their place when they found out that i was a lot smarter than they expected.A lot of my workmates loved watching them squirm when i made them look silly.You have me on one point though,i have never voted to make anybody elses life better,only my own.That is where my lack of university education shows up,i have not had compassion ingrained in to me to think of others instead of just myself.My life has got better in a slight way because the FTSE100 has gone up and my british shares have now gone up a bit which is what i was hoping would happen.I need some of my hard earned cash that i have saved to start making some money for me.I had hoped the interest rate would go up but it hasnt yet so i need something,i am not getting any younger but at least my mortgage is paid off which is one major hurdle crossed.

[tinfoilhat]

so really you are saying we the uneducated should listen to our better and do as we are told

 

Don't you listen to experts at all then? Not doctors or teachers or things like that?

 

I'm all for voting, and the freedom to vote with the absolute minimal knowledge of what you're voting for. Let's face it, people vote in general elections and not have a clue what the party will or won't do for them. Why would this be any different?

 

That's why we can't have another referendum - this one was simple. In or out.

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:25 ----------

 

I did not blame it on foreigners,i never mentioned that once so do not try and label me a bigot that is what all the remainers say.My argument is with the EU itself and the rules that they made.I probably would have done the same as those migrant workers did and headed for the richest country if i was poor and with no job.My point is that it has made the average worker worse off.You appear to be insinuating that if you are not smart enough to better yourself then you deserve everything you get,inbetween the lines.I guessed you had been to university even though i did not know because you fitted the usual thinking of a university graduate.I have put one or two bosses at work who had been to university in their place when they found out that i was a lot smarter than they expected.A lot of my workmates loved watching them squirm when i made them look silly.You have me on one point though,i have never voted to make anybody elses life better,only my own.That is where my lack of university education shows up,i have not had compassion ingrained in to me to think of others instead of just myself.My life has got better in a slight way because the FTSE100 has gone up and my british shares have now gone up a bit which is what i was hoping would happen.I need some of my hard earned cash that i have saved to start making some money for me.I had hoped the interest rate would go up but it hasnt yet so i need something,i am not getting any younger but at least my mortgage is paid off which is one major hurdle crossed.

 

What rules don't you like?

[Fogey]

so really you are saying we the uneducated should listen to our better and do as we are told

 

I think you should listen to educated people and maybe consider whether or not what they are saying is worthwhile, maybe even check the facts for yourself. Seriously though, don't light a cigarette if you can smell gas.

[phil752]

As a result of the referendum the government don't 'have to' do something about immigration. They can choose to apply for section 50, indeed they feel obliged to do so. But, as a party they were on the remain side and on the side of the status quo. It follows that they will try to keep things as near the same as possible. UKIP and a load of dissatisfied voters from other party's with their more extreme views won't get a look in.

 

The referendum result gave them an implied instruction to start those discussions. So they will negotiate and produce exit terms. Whatever you call it the General Election that follows that will be a referendum on those terms. And rightly so in my opinion. May might even call an election to give her a mandate to proceed.

 

Yanis Varoufakis put it very well "The victory for the leavers said 'put the cooker on, receipe to follow'. Lets see what kind of meal they make of it?

 

Yanis Varoufakis is a fickle character, during the brexit debate he said is main reason for wanting a remain vote was that he was worried, not for the uk, but that it would destabilize the EU. Where does this guy get is funding from?

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:38 ----------

 

I think you should listen to educated people and maybe consider whether or not what they are saying is worthwhile, maybe even check the facts for yourself. Seriously though, don't light a cigarette if you can smell gas.

 

Which ones of the educated people on either side should you listen to, guess you didn't listen to half of them, but being educated guess you didn't have to.

[area 51]

Don't you listen to experts at all then? Not doctors or teachers or things like that?

 

I'm all for voting, and the freedom to vote with the absolute minimal knowledge of what you're voting for. Let's face it, people vote in general elections and not have a clue what the party will or won't do for them. Why would this be any different?

 

That's why we can't have another referendum - this one was simple. In or out.

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:25 ----------

 

 

What rules don't you like?

 

The rules that decided to introduce competition from the rest of the EU and ultimately put the company i worked for out of business.The only people that came out of all this well were the people who needed cheap labour to make themselves wealthy.I have ended up like so many people who worked for small family companies,we have all been swallowed up by the big boys and have found ourselves working for all the eu big boy companies who treat workers really badly and pay them a pittance.Just a number who can be hired and fired at will.The only good thing about the EU was the workers rights minimum 48 hour week which we opted out of as a country and meant i was told to opt out as part of my contract on a take it or leave it basis.I find myself regularly working 60 hours and for no extra money,just a freebie from me that i am supposed to do as a thank you for them giving me a job.Fogey says i am bitter,too right i am, the EU has done nothing for me.

[phil752]

Don't you listen to experts at all then? Not doctors or teachers or things like that?

 

I'm all for voting, and the freedom to vote with the absolute minimal knowledge of what you're voting for. Let's face it, people vote in general elections and not have a clue what the party will or won't do for them. Why would this be any different?

 

That's why we can't have another referendum - this one was simple. In or out.

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:25 ----------

 

 

What rules don't you like?

 

Not blindly no, do you?

[Fogey]

I did not blame it on foreigners,i never mentioned that once so do not try and label me a bigot that is what all the remainers say.My argument is with the EU itself and the rules that they made.I probably would have done the same as those migrant workers did and headed for the richest country if i was poor and with no job.My point is that it has made the average worker worse off.You appear to be insinuating that if you are not smart enough to better yourself then you deserve everything you get,inbetween the lines.I guessed you had been to university even though i did not know because you fitted the usual thinking of a university graduate.I have put one or two bosses at work who had been to university in their place when they found out that i was a lot smarter than they expected.A lot of my workmates loved watching them squirm when i made them look silly.You have me on one point though,i have never voted to make anybody elses life better,only my own.That is where my lack of university education shows up,i have not had compassion ingrained in to me to think of others instead of just myself.My life has got better in a slight way because the FTSE100 has gone up and my british shares have now gone up a bit which is what i was hoping would happen.I need some of my hard earned cash that i have saved to start making some money for me.I had hoped the interest rate would go up but it hasnt yet so i need something,i am not getting any younger but at least my mortgage is paid off which is one major hurdle crossed.

 

What makes you think those same rules wouldn't have come about if the EU didn't exist?

 

The average worker has actually become much better off as time has gone by, excepting of course the major blip of the recent recession, which wasn't the fault of the EU.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/uk-wages-over-the-past-four-decades/2014/rep---uk-wages-over-the-past-four-decades.html

 

Do you see what I am saying? You're basing your decision making on poorly formulated assumptions and incorrect data.

[tinfoilhat]

The rules that decided to introduce competition from the rest of the EU and ultimately put the company i worked for out of business.The only people that came out of all this well were the people who needed cheap labour to make themselves wealthy.I have ended up like so many people who worked for small family companies,we have all been swallowed up by the big boys and have found ourselves working for all the eu big boy companies who treat workers really badly and pay them a pittance.Just a number who can be hired and fired at will.The only good thing about the EU was the workers rights minimum 48 hour week which we opted out of as a country and meant i was told to opt out as part of my contract on a take it or leave it basis.I find myself regularly working 60 hours and for no extra money,just a freebie from me that i am supposed to do as a thank you for them giving me a job.Fogey says i am bitter,too right i am, the EU has done nothing for me.

 

So, in truth you didn't like our government opting out of something that would have helped you, and you don't like globalisation. I don't know your industry but I was talking to chap who gets protection from the bigger companies because of the EU - he's a small local concern doing craft beers. I know the EU protect other things like our venerable Cornish pasty. Do you think our government helps small businesses? I don't. Corbyns lot certainly won't.

 

But the first point, competition - we've always had that haven't we? It's a global market in we're competing with everyone.

[Fogey]

Yanis Varoufakis is a fickle character, during the brexit debate he said is main reason for wanting a remain vote was that he was worried, not for the uk, but that it would destabilize the EU. Where does this guy get is funding from?

 

---------- Post added 22-10-2016 at 21:38 ----------

 

 

Which ones of the educated people on either side should you listen to, guess you didn't listen to half of them, but being educated guess you didn't have to.

 

I checked the claims made by both sides, the claims made by the leave side generally turned out to be a load of populist rubbish.