When will the political left change/learn?

[tinfoilhat]

Well this is the two-sided part tin. I think many remainers voted for wrong reasons, the lies in the campaign were there but not as noticeable as the twitter moron brigade. The funny thing is, had it not been for the remain brigade showing buses every 8 seconds, I never even would have seen it, neither would anyone else other than the few places it went to... most likely areas with lots of UKIPs, so a waste of time anyway. THIS is what the political left can learn from. It's not difficult, even I, as a thick racist xenophobic brexiter posted about these lies and poor arguments by the remain campaign, almost every day in the run-up

 

I thought, and think, that the EU will collapse. Its utter farce with the Syria crisis was the last nail for me, it showed that it hasn't got a clue when it comes to decision making, every country had its own idea, and that for me is the downfall of the ideology - it simply doesn't work. It's a con. Countries and more importantly, people in countries, like to decide for themselves. It worked fairly well and fairly balanced until Blair got hold of it in 2004. After that it was doomed.

 

As for the 'because my dad did', I've argued against this for years, because that's what kept Labour in and why all this is happening now. I'm not sure who these voted for though as it wasn't really a left or right wing question.

 

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Brexit had at least 4m in the bag with UKIP voters, but remain had that plus probably more with lefties + people who are doing well in London. The rest of the country voted, and many Labour voters, especially up north voted for it. Some of the very people who claim in here, implying in almost every post how clever they are.

 

You've got a valid point about the potential collapse of the eu. My mate is sure it will happen and it's not a stretch to see it shrink down to france, Germany and the Benelux countries. A word about remain voters. If you ask leave voters if they thought the EU was crap 100% would say yes. Ask remainers the same question, I'd bet half would also say yes. I would. It's ripe for reform, proper reform not the dogs breakfast Cameron brought back. But I don't like change, neither does the economy.

 

The referendum wasn't a left or right question but it was a very simple one albeit with complex ramifications. There's an argument there should be more referendums - I'm not sure.

[biotechpete]

That post is nonsense fella, seriously ...... don't exist under 50 and the vast majority of spending is on them, explain that

 

Well, the traditional class segregation and the term working class are not any longer applicable especially to the younger generation. Sociologists and economists estimate that 7 classes exist in the UK. What fits with white working class most is the traditional working class. They have an average age of 66 so basically the working class of the 60s/70s. They're not poor though. Most own their own homes despite relatively poor educational achievement and low social capital. In reality the term white working class is an effort at putting a (false and divisive) face on the poor. I personally avoid the term working class. I think poor is more accurate since there are poor working age people who do not identify as working class.

 

Majority of spending; well it's difficult to objectively state, i grant you, and I make a few assumptions in my assessment. For instance about 90% of the UK population are white British ethnicity. They are in receipt of over 90% of benefits.

 

A very large proportion of public expediture is on mainly white ageing pensioners. Some 42% of total welfare spending or £108 bn. NHS spending on over 50s is massively more than in other age groups it's around half of NHS spending (~£55bn).

 

Equally when you look at working age benefits, you would assume that most of this is spent on the poor. As on average many more than 50% of these are white poor, I believe it's a safe assumption that way way more than 50% is spent on white people than other ethnicities of poor people.

 

I'm prepared to be corrected though.

 

In the context of this discussion, the political differences are much smaller between lower and middle income people than they are between young and old. So indeed, the white working class UKIP voter is mainly a home owning pensioner.

[pretty_big]

Well it's good you're keeping busy. I'm not sure how many foreign benefit scrounging immigrants we have in this country. I'm sure you know this but illegal immigrants can't claim any benefits. I'm not sure what benifits EU/non -EU immigrants can get, but I'm sure someone will stop by and inform us. An awful lot of working people get in-work benifits, is that just for British people then?

 

It's interesting you mention Gordon brown. I think it's fair to say he had a tough time of it but immigration, particularly from Eastern Europe was set in motion by blairs deal with the EU. I suppose he could have vetoed - he didn't.

 

I'm not sure people who voted for trump should be vilified, but, like the brexiters, they should be held to account if it all goes pear shaped. Many trump voters would have voted for his stance on abortion, his foreign policy but, like it or not, many voted for trump because they want to send the Mexicans home and keep Muslims out. Listen to a few of the more right of centre ones on the telly or social media. They're nutjobs. Anyone who claims, for example, Obama is a Muslim terrorist is a nut job. Those people, to a man, voted trump.

 

 

You say we should be held to account if things go pear shaped, does that mean we can hold you lefties to account for our present society?

[Santo]

You say we should be held to account if things go pear shaped, does that mean we can hold you lefties to account for our present society?

 

No. Life is what you make it. If yours hasn't panned out all that marvellous blame yourself not TinFoilHat.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Santo

[Cyclone]

To be honest a lot of people have a point, shipped in married unaccompanied workers, that do work, are or were entitled to the same in work allowance that a British worker gets, who have a family and home here.

 

From within the EU yes, just like you'd be entitled to the same as the locals if you toddled off to Germany to work.

 

---------- Post added 11-11-2016 at 10:28 ----------

 

Ive always thought the best way around migrants and benefits, is for every country in the EU to pay a migrant everything that the country pays their own population. But for the government claim it back from the person originating country for say a period of 5 year.

 

So if you go and claim benefits in Switzerland, then somehow the UK is on the hook for funding it? It's not like the UK will have asked or given you permission to go there, it's just something you can do.

 

---------- Post added 11-11-2016 at 10:31 ----------

 

squaring this circle is going to test his legendary deal making abilities......

 

He's a legend in his own lifetime mind.

[tinfoilhat]

You say we should be held to account if things go pear shaped, does that mean we can hold you lefties to account for our present society?

 

Thatcher was a lefty? Blair was a lefty? They've done more to shape this country than any lefty council ever has. You can do better than that.

[sgtkate]

Question,i am guessing that you are not suggesting that any person who voted for brexit or for Trump were stupid and did not understand what they were voting for.I do not know who you are or your background but you should give people more credit than that.You should not vilify anybody who does not agree with your beliefs,your beliefs may not be whats right for everybody else.

 

No of course not! Idiots voted for Clinton as well as Trump. It's not about my beliefs, it's about swathes of people voting when they don't know what they are voting for, that's all.

[tinfoilhat]

You need to stop believing all the drivel you read, I bet you believe yougov polls too ..... seriously there is still a lot of nonsense in that post of yours. The fact that older people get pensions and need the NHS more, coupled with the fact that the UK is still predominantly white British needs little or no research fella.

There are plenty of what is regarded traditionally as working class people under the ages you have quoted ..... in every aspect of building trade work, property repair, manufacturing, drivers, shop workers etc

Your generalisation to dismiss the working class and regard them as poor speaks volumes about you, your life, and the little bubble you live in .... your quite typical of the arrogant 'middle class' lefty types that can't get their heads around Farage, Brexit and Trump ..... laughable

 

Your white working class, home owning UKIP voter is not strictly a pensioner, so stop being so ignorant and naïve.

I would also like to add, that your average pensioner, did not go through life with access to the benefits available to the current generation and undoubtedly cost the NHS less than the current generation when they were younger. Do we need to mention the cost that any influx of immigrants has added to the social budgets in the last 20 years ..... oh better not eh !

 

The middle aged UKIP voter had access to a free university education (even got a grant!) and more consistent benefits than they do now. Housing was affordable then too.

[Cyclone]

For Michael_W's benefit, study after study demonstrates that immigration contributes more to the economy than it ever costs us.

[Randy]

No of course not! Idiots voted for Clinton as well as Trump. It's not about my beliefs, it's about swathes of people voting when they don't know what they are voting for, that's all.

 

It still sounds like you think people who disagree with you shouldn't be allowed to vote.