When will the political left change/learn?

[Petminder]

Why is that the fault of someone who has had their entire life taken from them through simply living in the wrong country?

 

I'm not saying we should simply chuck open the doors without any controls, but to say that someone who just happened to be born here, with all the opportunities that in itself offers, somehow DESERVES a house or a secure life more than someone who had none of the opportunities we had and has now had everything they worked so hard for bombed out from underneath them, had rape threats, children trying to be forced into child soldiers etc, then I disagree.

 

I doubt you will find someone opposed to mass immigration saying that British people deserve an house. In my experience its people in support of mass immigration they say everyone deserves a house and secure life.

[sgtkate]

I doubt you will find someone opposed to mass immigration saying that British people deserve an house. In my experience its people in support of mass immigration they say everyone deserves a house and secure life.

 

Took me a few reads to understand what you were saying, but yes I think I agree (just to clarify, it's my reading skills at fault, not your post!). Those against immigration are also the ones more likely to be against a welfare state than those in support.

[Guest]

The fact that you can see the parallels with the rise of nazi germany and that you feel you have to deny them means that they probably are very much true.

 

There are not parallels with Nazi Germany with what's happening today regarding Brexit and the election of Trump but references to it are boringly predictable.

[dangerousedd]

yes people deserve an house but neither labour or the conservatives are going to do anything that will boost house building to a level that would support mass immigration.

[Hots on]

No, I mean people moving from Lancaster to Yorkshire. What's difficult to understand about immigration between two areas of the country?

 

So what makes France to UK somehow fundamentally different than Sheffield to London, or any other intra UK movement?

 

What are the benefits of stopping free movement within the EU, and why do they apply to the EU, but not to county or city level within the UK? It's not a complex question.

 

ridiculous. So basically you think there should be no country borders?

 

---------- Post added 14-11-2016 at 11:11 ----------

 

As far as the political left in this country goes, I don't think they can actually change; they are too absolutist. If you truly believe that every one of your ideas is right, then listening to the views of others who don't share them is in your own mind, pretty much a waste of time.

 

The left just tell people who disagree with them that they are wrong. Margaret Hodge, your archetypal posh leftie, once said "we must change people's minds" about immigration.

 

Whereas the right listens, or at least pretends to, as May is doing at the moment.

 

Left wing my arse. The Immigration levels we've seen have come about thanks to the lobbying of business interests wanting to keep cheap labour flowing, and governments of both parties have responded to it. They just like to dress it up as nicey nicey left wing multiculturalism.

[sgtkate]

Left wing my arse. The Immigration levels we've seen have come about thanks to the lobbying of business interests wanting to keep cheap labour flowing, and governments of both parties have responded to it. They just like to dress it up as nicey nicey left wing multiculturalism.

 

That too. I do believe we have a responsibility as humans to help out those who need it, that does not mean immigration necessarily, there are many many ways to help the world. The problem is that a lot of people who are anti-immigration are also seemingly against helping out those people at all, and therefore it is all too easy to assume that any discussion about immigration must be racist. It's lazy to do that but it's clear to see why it happens.

 

Immigration has hugely benefitted businesses through easier access to a wide labour market. The acid test is whether having that wider labour market has left the 'average' man or women better off or worse and it's not a simple answer. You could argue that some jobs have suffered wage erosion as a result of the wider and cheaper job market but you could also argue that the prices of products have fallen as they are now cheaper to produce. With a handful of extreme exceptions, all of us are better off financially and consumeristically(not a word I know!) than we were 20 years ago, therefore I'd argue that the open market system has benefitted us more than a closed one. That does not mean it will continue to do so or that we've benefitted culturally (I think we have, but perhaps my view is skewed?) hence not a simple answer. I do find it strange though that being pro-immigration (or at least not anti-immigration) seems to be a left wing stance when the setup we have now was pretty much solely to boost capitalism. Funny old world.

[banjodeano]

There are not parallels with Nazi Germany with what's happening today regarding Brexit and the election of Trump but references to it are boringly predictable.

of course there is...the people are disillusioned, a right wing fanatic comes to the front, blames all the problems on the minority and plans to get rid of them,

[Cyclone]

ridiculous. So basically you think there should be no country borders?

Ultimately, in the far distant future, I'm sure that will be true.

 

In the short term, Europe basically has no internal borders. Or at least no restrictions and/or checks on them, and that's a good thing IMO.

 

Left wing my arse. The Immigration levels we've seen have come about thanks to the lobbying of business interests wanting to keep cheap labour flowing, and governments of both parties have responded to it. They just like to dress it up as nicey nicey left wing multiculturalism.

 

You might also consider the aging population and the pension problem we have...

[Guest]

 

You might also consider the aging population and the pension problem we have...

 

Immigrants grow old too you know.

[Petminder]

Immigrants grow old too you know.

 

Apparently they all go back to their country of origin when they need healthcare and before they reach old age.