Rustling Road trees are being felled right now

[Guest makapaka]

I'm not suggesting that at all. There are provisions in place to allow people to set up a new parish. It is not instant, but they are certainly not being denied anything or being discriminated against in the same way that you cannot vote in elections unless you are on the electoral role. This is not instant either.

 

---------- Post added 16-03-2017 at 19:21 ----------

 

 

Flexo is referring to Facebook STAG membership, not trees felled.

 

Ok apologies I thought he talking about trees felled. What is the total of each. Not a leading question just interested.

[Hairyloon]

I'm not suggesting that at all. There are provisions in place to allow people to set up a new parish.

Fair point, but do you think those provisions are proportionate to the legitimate aim involved in denying them the right to a democratic voice?

[Robin-H]

Ok apologies I thought he talking about trees felled. What is the total of each. Not a leading question just interested.

 

The council aren't (or haven't yet) provided figures so it is not possible to tell. Freedom of Information requests to find out the exact figures have been deemed vexatious and so have been left unanswered.

 

I believe the felling is currently at about 6,000 - or will be when the current phase is complete, and trees are being replaced on a one to one basis (apart from Rustling Road which is the only street I am aware of that is gaining trees - I'm not categorically stating that it is the only street, but is the only one I am aware of).

 

---------- Post added 16-03-2017 at 19:41 ----------

 

Fair point, but do you think those provisions are proportionate to the legitimate aim involved in denying them the right to a democratic voice?

 

I don't believe that people not living in civil parishes are being denied their democratic voice.

 

I can petition councillors, I can arrange meetings with ward councillors, I can attend council meetings, etc etc. Not being able to call an advisory poll without first applying for my local area to be designated a civil parish does not remove my democratic voice.

[Guest makapaka]

The council aren't (or haven't yet) provided figures so it is not possible to tell. Freedom of Information requests to find out the exact figures have been deemed vexatious and so have been left unanswered.

 

I believe the felling is currently at about 6,000 - or will be when the current phase is complete, and trees are being replaced on a one to one basis (apart from Rustling Road which is the only street I am aware of that is gaining trees - I'm not categorically stating that it is the only street, but is the only one I am aware of).

 

I'd heard it was around 6000 it's why I confused the previous post. Would be interesting to know.

[Hairyloon]

You're avoiding the question.

[Guest makapaka]

You're avoiding the question.

 

What was the question?

[Robin-H]

You're avoiding the question.

 

If you're referring to the question you posed to me in post #1179 then I just answered that in post #1180. I don't believe that people not living in civil parishes are being denied their democratic voice.

[Hairyloon]

If you're referring to the question you posed to me in post #1179 then I just answered that in post #1180. I don't believe that people not living in civil parishes are being denied their democratic voice.

 

I asked if you think those provisions are proportionate to the legitimate aim involved in denying them the right to a democratic voice.

[Robin-H]

I asked if you think those provisions are proportionate to the legitimate aim involved in denying them the right to a democratic voice.

 

Then I don't understand what you are asking. I don't think they are being denied the right to a democratic voice.

 

---------- Post added 16-03-2017 at 22:39 ----------

 

Further to the earlier discussion I have done some more reading which has clarified for me the process in calling a parish poll, and perhaps more importantly the issues that a parish poll can address.

 

This has further cemented my views that I am correct that only people who live or work in parished areas (which means civil and not ecclesiastical parishes) can call a poll. The following quote is from a 2014 consultation paper on the Government’s intentions to modernise parish poll regulations.

 

"A parish poll is a democratic tool which allows for a ballot of local government electors in the parish to be called on any question arising at a parish meeting. Accordingly a parish poll should only be held on a question which it is appropriate for a parish to consider. Although non-binding, meaning that the results of the poll do not have to be followed, they provide an indication of support for, or opposition to, specific parish matters which helps to guide parish council decision-making."

 

In parishes that are too small to have parish councils there must be two statutory parish meetings a year. In parishes with a council one additional meeting must be held above the number of council meetings held.

 

It also states that parish polls are expensive, and it costs on average £5,000 - £8,000 (based on a survey of 150 parishes) and so is a very expensive method of gaging the local communities views.

 

Under the 1972 Act it states that a poll can be triggered before the end of a parish meeting on any of the questions that were raised during that meeting. The number of people demanding the poll depends of the number of people attending the meeting.

 

Hopefully this is clarified matters for you, as it has for me. It is even more apparent to me now that it would be impossible to call a parish poll when you don't live in a civil parish because the poll needs to be called at the parish meeting. The questions on which the poll can be based are also limited, and matters that are not specific to the parish would not be a legitimate reason to hold the poll. A city wide contract is not a parish issue, even if Sheffield was comprised on parishes, which it is not.

 

The consultation document can be viewed here.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/381894/Parish_Poll_Consultation.pdf

[Hairyloon]

Further to the earlier discussion I have done some more reading which has clarified for me the process in calling a parish poll, and perhaps more importantly the issues that a parish poll can address.

I do appreciate your time on this, thank you.

The following quote is from a 2014 consultation paper on the Government’s intentions to modernise parish poll regulations.

 

(My bold). That is helpful information, but note that it is a consultation: it is not definitive.

Only the judgment of a court can set a definitive interpretation of a law.

"A parish poll is a democratic tool which allows for a ballot of local government electors in the parish to be called on any question arising at a parish meeting. Accordingly a parish poll should only be held on a question which it is appropriate for a parish to consider.

Where are you drawing the line between what is appropriate and what isn't?

Consider for example Brexit: is that likely to have any effect on the parish?

Is it not appropriate for the parish to consider the effects of Brexit and how it is going to deal with them?

I think that it is very much so. And if it is true for Brexit, then it is likely to be true for almost any issue that affects the parish. It is certainly true for decisions on the management of the trees within the parish, but I think we should step away from that and consider the general concept.

 

It also states that parish polls are expensive, and it costs on average £5,000 - £8,000 (based on a survey of 150 parishes) and so is a very expensive method of gaging the local communities views.

Looking forward, perhaps we should look at modernising the voting system, if only for these parish polls. There is no good reason why it should need to cost so much.

 

But even doing it the traditional way, that sounds like a lot. If we assume, for convenience that a parish is the area served by one polling station, then you need what? five people? for all day to man it. Some more in the evening to count them. Plus the rent on the building for the day.

How does that come to £5,000? Do they spend a lot on the printing and postage?

 

Hopefully this is clarified matters for you, as it has for me. It is even more apparent to me now that it would be impossible to call a parish poll when you don't live in a civil parish because the poll needs to be called at the parish meeting.

Yes, the poll needs to be called at a parish meeting, I'm not seeing where the problem is.

I'll run through the proposed sequence of events and you jump in at the point where you think I can't do it because it is the wrong sort of parish.

 

Start with six electors to call the meeting.

That is, six people registered to vote in a given area who are prepared to assert that that area is a parish and want to call a meeting.

If they advertise a parish meeting over the area then the people who turn up are, by definition, people who are prepared to consider the area as a parish.

 

The meeting meets, discusses the issues and decides to call for a poll.

They submit a notice to the council asking for a poll.

I expect you to jump in here as the council official and say that the council has no record of this parish.

Except that we have (x) people who attended the meeting that believe there is a parish, so it looks like the problem is with the records...

The weight of that argument will be somewhat dependant on the size of (x), but in any case, we now fall into the area between what the council can do and what the council must do.

Certainly the council can run a poll, the question is: will they?

 

Let us assume that they say "no". That should at least give you a story in the local paper, whereupon you threaten a judicial review...

You might also point out that you could demand a neighbourhood review, establish a parish, hold another meeting and ask again, whereupon they would be obliged to comply.

 

But isn't that creating a whole lot of unnecessary work for the council in these ties of austerity?

What is the sensible course of action for the council at this point?

They could gamble on us bluffing about the judicial review, but look at the argument we have had and imagine how long it could run if we were both experts in the relevant law...

Hard to see how they could come out of that looking good.

 

The questions on which the poll can be based are also limited, and matters that are not specific to the parish would not be a legitimate reason to hold the poll. A city wide contract is not a parish issue...

It doesn't need to be: why can't a parish vote on a choice of management plans for their area?