A return to the days of rail crashes

[the_bloke]

The direct comparison could be achieved by looking at the fault of accidents. Clapham for example boiled down to wrongly wired signals, the infrastructure. I'm not about to start wading through data like that though, nor have you done so, so neither of us know.

[Bob Arctor]

The direct comparison could be achieved by looking at the fault of accidents. Clapham for example boiled down to wrongly wired signals, the infrastructure. I'm not about to start wading through data like that though, nor have you done so, so neither of us know.

 

Clapham does stand out, definitely. You can view details of all UK rail accidents here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom#1948.E2.80.931994:_British_Railways.2FRail

 

In the 10 years before privatisation there was Clapham and a minor accident at Motherwell attributed to infrastructure. Post-privatisation we had Hatfield and Potters Bar in close succession, plus Paddington which although was due to signal passed at danger (SPAD) was also an infrastructure fault as the signal should have been relocated. It was also noted that the driver training programme had been watered down from the British Rail days and that a newly-qualified driver had been allowed to drive into/out of Paddington when previously a driver would have needed 2 years experience to do this.

 

The graph on the Wikipedia page is pretty instructive I think. We also have to remember that private companies with shareholders have a duty to those shareholders to maximise value, which I and many people think inevitably puts them into conflict with the safest practices.

[Annie Bynnol]

Aah, Failtrack, probably the worst disaster that privatisation ever bestowed on the country. . . literally.

 

For how many years did they expect to receive £billions in taxpayer handouts while killing hundreds of passengers every year?

 

In the eight years of Railtrack, "killing hundreds of passengers every year" would be a minimum of 1600 killed.

 

In reality about 40 deaths were caused by driver error.

15 deaths by road vehicle drivers.

12 by track failure.

4 others

 

Rates before Railtrack were similar were and much less after, which reflects the robustness of track and rolling stock. It also shows that incidents of any kind are rare and that single accidents skew data

 

The safety concern about Railtrack was its inability to control the work of its main sub-contractors. After the publicity from the two derailments at Potters Bar(2000) and Hadfield(2002) it was found that over the whole Network that some contractors had reduced to the minimum legal standard, the amount of track tests being done.

 

Some of its main contractors pulled out and its main shareholders refused to raise capital. The assets, debt and liability of Railtrack PLC were transferred to Network Rail Ltd.

 

In February it will be ten years since the death of a passenger on a train.

[The Joker]

In the eight years of Railtrack, "killing hundreds of passengers every year" would be a minimum of 1600 killed.

 

I should have written killing or injuring hundreds of passengers every year.

 

Paddington train crash: 31 deaths, 523 injuries (!)

Potters Bar train crash: 7 deaths, 76 injuries

Hatfield train crash: 4 deaths, over 70 injuries

 

And we were funding these greedy, incompetent buffoons to the tune of £billions of your taxes, my taxes, our taxes every year.

[Bob Arctor]

In the eight years of Railtrack, "killing hundreds of passengers every year" would be a minimum of 1600 killed.

 

In reality about 40 deaths were caused by driver error.

15 deaths by road vehicle drivers.

12 by track failure.

4 others

 

Rates before Railtrack were similar were and much less after, which reflects the robustness of track and rolling stock. It also shows that incidents of any kind are rare and that single accidents skew data

 

The safety concern about Railtrack was its inability to control the work of its main sub-contractors. After the publicity from the two derailments at Potters Bar(2000) and Hadfield(2002) it was found that over the whole Network that some contractors had reduced to the minimum legal standard, the amount of track tests being done.

 

Some of its main contractors pulled out and its main shareholders refused to raise capital. The assets, debt and liability of Railtrack PLC were transferred to Network Rail Ltd.

 

In February it will be ten years since the death of a passenger on a train.

 

Grayling's proposal will take us back to the days of multiple sub contractors. Virgin are a train operating company not an engineering company, so they will sub it, and the sub will probably sub it, and that sub may well sub it. And overruns will affect Virgin's revenue, and one way to avoid overruns is to cut corners. If it hadn't happened before it would be speculation, but it did happen before.

[Obelix]

Clapham does stand out, definitely. You can view details of all UK rail accidents here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_accidents_in_the_United_Kingdom#1948.E2.80.931994:_British_Railways.2FRail

 

In the 10 years before privatisation there was Clapham and a minor accident at Motherwell attributed to infrastructure. Post-privatisation we had Hatfield and Potters Bar in close succession, plus Paddington which although was due to signal passed at danger (SPAD) was also an infrastructure fault as the signal should have been relocated. It was also noted that the driver training programme had been watered down from the British Rail days and that a newly-qualified driver had been allowed to drive into/out of Paddington when previously a driver would have needed 2 years experience to do this.

 

The graph on the Wikipedia page is pretty instructive I think. We also have to remember that private companies with shareholders have a duty to those shareholders to maximise value, which I and many people think inevitably puts them into conflict with the safest practices.

 

Yes it shows that you get a fair number of rail crashes for many reasons, of which those that are infrastructure based are in the minority. But lets not stop your atrocious revisionism above to support political aims.

 

---------- Post added 04-12-2016 at 11:44 ----------

 

I should have written killing or injuring hundreds of passengers every year.

 

Paddington train crash: 31 deaths, 523 injuries (!)

Potters Bar train crash: 7 deaths, 76 injuries

Hatfield train crash: 4 deaths, over 70 injuries

 

And we were funding these greedy, incompetent buffoons to the tune of £billions of your taxes, my taxes, our taxes every year.

 

Yeah lets go back to the nationalised railway....

 

Clapham Junction 35 dead - signalling issues (like Paddington)

Harrow and Wealdston - 112 dead another missed signals like Paddington

Hither Green 49 dead - broken rail (like Hatfield)

Connington South 5 dead - like Potters bar switches failed...

[Guest]

I remember Steven Byers sweating like a pig during a grilling from Richard Dimbleby after that Paddington rail crash, like it was Steven Byers personal fault that it happened He should have grown a pair and put Dumbleby in his place.

[The Joker]

Yeah lets go back to the nationalised railway....

 

Clapham Junction 35 dead - signalling issues (like Paddington)

Harrow and Wealdston - 112 dead another missed signals like Paddington

Hither Green 49 dead - broken rail (like Hatfield)

Connington South 5 dead - like Potters bar switches failed...

 

Has the service worsened or improved since it was sold off for private profit?

 

Is the service safer ?

 

And is it costing taxpayers less ?

 

I would really love to know.

[Bob Arctor]

 

Yeah lets go back to the nationalised railway....

 

Clapham Junction 35 dead - signalling issues (like Paddington)

Harrow and Wealdston - 112 dead another missed signals like Paddington

Hither Green 49 dead - broken rail (like Hatfield)

Connington South 5 dead - like Potters bar switches failed...

 

We already went back to nationalised infrastructure. It has resulted in many fewer accidents and many fewer fatalties.

[Obelix]

Has the service worsened or improved since it was sold off for private profit?

 

Is the service safer ?

 

And is it costing taxpayers less ?

 

I would really love to know.

 

In terms of fatalities it's safer by a long margin. But thats not the entire story of course.

 

---------- Post added 04-12-2016 at 15:40 ----------

 

We already went back to nationalised infrastructure. It has resulted in many fewer accidents and many fewer fatalties.

 

No it hasn't don't be silly.