Time to face up to the truth of religion?

[unbeliever]

Science is great , it shows how our minds are far higher in intellect than anything else on earth

 

That's good.

Now there's a whole field of science called "evolutionary biology" which shows how the great sophistication and complexity around us arose naturally and incrementally from extremely simple beginnings by a process of natural selection.

Given that earlier you asserted that all things have a creator, but then didn't respond to the challenge "who created the creator", you are presumably rather selective in your support for science.

 

How about we try again.

Hypothesis 1: We were created by an Intelligence because all things are created. Oh, we don't know how that Intelligence came to exist, so we've not actually explained anything. Oops!

Hypothesis 2: We were created by a process of natural selection over billions of years. That sounds unlikely does it?. Only if you don't look at the nature of DNA and organic molecules in general or study taxonomy at any level, or just think about it for a minute. No it's nothing at all like finding a watch on the beach.

[Cyclone]

Isn't it?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

 

(Christianity has 2.2billion, Islam is second with 1.6billion)

 

I stand corrected, I'm must have got it mixed up since the last time I looked up this info.

 

---------- Post added 13-12-2016 at 18:41 ----------

 

Bloody hell, you two (Unbeliever as well) are like a dog with an itch it can't scratch.

 

When you stop using words like delusions and claiming people with faith are somehow mentally deranged I'll stop having to fight my corner. Have you any idea how insulting your language is?

 

You're insulted because someone challenged your opinions... I have my opinions challenged all the time, I can either back them up with evidence or change them, it's never insulting though.

[fatrajah]

I think it's worth pointing out that the figures given for the number of christians in the uk, for example, are a gross exagerration. The number of practising christians is probably one tenth of that figure, the rest being made up of nominal christians & people who vaguely subscribe to christian values but not to the central claims of the religion.

Edited December 13, 2016 by fatrajah

[kingdom]

That's good.

Now there's a whole field of science called "evolutionary biology" which shows how the great sophistication and complexity around us arose naturally and incrementally from extremely simple beginnings by a process of natural selection.

Given that earlier you asserted that all things have a creator, but then didn't respond to the challenge "who created the creator", you are presumably rather selective in your support for science.

 

How about we try again.

Hypothesis 1: We were created by an Intelligence because all things are created. Oh, we don't know how that Intelligence came to exist, so we've not actually explained anything. Oops!

Hypothesis 2: We were created by a process of natural selection over billions of years. That sounds unlikely does it?. Only if you don't look at the nature of DNA and organic molecules in general or study taxonomy at any level, or just think about it for a minute. No it's nothing at all like finding a watch on the beach.

 

 

We have a mind like our creator to think and explore

[Cyclone]

Who created the creator (I assume you're not talking about your mum).

[fatrajah]

We have a mind like our creator to think and explore

 

Does the creator need to think? Surely he/she/it knows all the answers already.

[unbeliever]

We have a mind like our creator to think and explore

 

Why quote my post and respond to nothing I said?

[petemcewan]

First of all. My apology to Obelix. I had no intention of portraying him or believe him to be a “religion basher”. My use of the term was meant as a generalisation for the type of atheism exemplified by militant atheism /aggressive secularism .

 

 

Classifying religious beliefs as a form of mental illness is absurd(OP). Each of us have beliefs-religious or not-that bring us fulfillment and comfort.

The notion of spiritual refers to a reality beyond the physical . Pursuing a spiritual life usually involves certain practices such as prayer ,meditation and contemplation.

Some Eastern religions encourage meditation . The basic object of meditation (Hindu,T.M,Buddhist, Islam ) is to acquire a state of complete rest in your, body and spirit. Thereby eliminating stress and facilitating contact with deeper, more creative levels of your consciousness. Rational thinking is intentionally suppressed.Meditative states are hardly an activity designed to induce mental illness.

Easter religion offers a fluid concept of spirituality ,understood as advanced states of awareness and perception.According to practiced

meditators (meditation-the inner way ), meditation helps to deliver you from spiritual and mental bondage. By transcending to a new perception of reality, a holistic way of life is achieved where spirit and matter become integrated. Such practices are encouraged as a means to achieve a healthy physical and spiritual life. So Religion is good for you.

 

 

Science.

From a philosophical point of view . The Cartesian paradigm was based on the belief that scientific knowledge could achieve absolute and final certainty. In the philosophy of modern science it is recognised that all concepts, theories and findings are limited and approximate . Science can never offer any complete and definitive understanding of reality. Scientists don’t deal with truth-in the sense of exact correspondence between what is observed and the description of the observed phenomena. Scientists deliver a limited and approximate description of reality. Truth in that sense doesn’t exist .What scientist say are approximations- in spite of systematic observation and model building (Simple philosophy of

Epistemology )

 

 

In an earlier post I mentioned “Scientism “. I certainly do not reject science. But I reject Scientism. The following quote sums it up :

 

 

“It is one thing to celebrate science for its achievements and remarkable ability to explain a wide variety of phenomena in the natural world. But to claim there is nothing knowable outside the scope of science would be similar to a successful fisherman saying that whatever he can’t catch in his nets does not exist . Once you accept that science is the only source of human knowledge, you have adopted a philosophical position (scientism) that cannot be verified, or falsified, by science itself. It is, in a word, unscientific “.

 

https://www.quora.com/What-is-scientism/answer/Nathan-Ketsdever

 

Holding onto it is an article of faith.

 

Faith is trust in a person or an idea. A person might put their trust in science whilst simultaneously have faith in their chosen religion. To do so is not an indication of mental illness.

 

What is Militant Atheism ?

 

MIlitant atheism is a particularly repugnant brand of prejudice against religion. .

Militant atheism( and I don’t just mean the Marxist Leninist kind ) is as repugnant as any brand of religious fundamentalism. It is clear to me,that the militant atheist is as unreasoning as the most idiotic creationist. Their intolerance is a mirror reflection of the bigotry of the religious extremist.

 

Militant atheism is a form of fanaticism. It is characterised by: intensity ,arrogance, ridicule , aggression ,insults and bullying.

 

Militant atheism targets: Christians ,Muslims, Jews,Hindus, Sikhs and others of a religious persuasion. An atheistic zealot does not discriminate between Christians,, Muslim and Jew in their prejudices. For the atheistic zealot all religions are denounced as irrational and therefore should be expunged .

It is my own view that the religious person should be free to practice their religion- in peace. Fundamentalism is the enemy of the humanity, not religion.

 

 

Notes:

“ Created in 2012 as a response to intolerant atheists seeking the removal of a Veterans Memorial that displayed religious symbols, the FFAF has grown leaps and bounds and boasts over 120,000 followers on their Facebook page . The Freedom From Atheism Foundation was created as a grassroots civil rights Facebook group to help protect the rights of religious believers, address the rising tide of intolerant atheism across the world, and be a beacon of hope and support for victims of atheist hate.

Read more at “ : http://www.christianpost.com/news/freedom-from-religion-how-about-freedom-from-atheism-119389/#aaRSXVksRqEZm8iB.99

Set up as a defence against militant atheism.

 

Notes:

 

(1)." Unlike what atheists propagate, some of the greatest minds of the past were not unbelievers."

It's possible to be a sharp mind in science as well as having a religion.

They were not-in any shape or form-mentally ill,deluded or suffering from false consciousness .

 

Source:

(1). Michael Caputo . I do not share Caput’s views on secular matters such as :

Abortion , Sexuality and Politics . It’s just a source of information.

https://www.amazon.com/Believe-God-Musicians-Philosophers-Scientists.

“

 

Oopps ! My apology for the link. Nice dog though innit ?

 

 

“ Militant atheism (Russian: воинствующий атеизм) is a term applied to atheism which is hostile towards religion. Militant atheists have a desire to propagate the doctrine, and differ from moderate atheists because they hold religion to be harmful and destructive”.

Militant atheism - Conservapedia

http://www.conservapedia.com/Militant_atheism

 

“ An antitheist (or New Atheist, militant atheist, atheistic fundamentalism…) is an atheist believing that all religions ought to disappear and that it is morally permissible (if not mandatory) to use ridicule, mockery and emotional bullying to destroy the faith of all religious believers.”

 

 

According to the 2011 census nearly 60 % of the population of England and Wales described themselves as Christian.

 

 

We live in a multi-faith country and should be proud of it.

Edited December 13, 2016 by petemcewan

[RootsBooster]

Classifying religious beliefs as a form of mental illness is absurd(OP). Each of us have beliefs-religious or not-that bring us fulfillment and comfort.

I don't subscribe to the idea that religion is a form of mental illness but you're trying to compare other beliefs (some will be rational, logical and realistic) with beliefs that range from wishful thinking to the downright ridiculous. This does not fly.

The notion of spiritual refers to a reality beyond the physical . Pursuing a spiritual life usually involves certain practices such as prayer ,meditation and contemplation.

Some Eastern religions encourage meditation . The basic object of meditation (Hindu,T.M,Buddhist, Islam ) is to acquire a state of complete rest in your, body and spirit. Thereby eliminating stress and facilitating contact with deeper, more creative levels of your consciousness. Rational thinking is intentionally suppressed.Meditative states are hardly an activity designed to induce mental illness.

Easter religion offers a fluid concept of spirituality ,understood as advanced states of awareness and perception.According to practiced

meditators (meditation-the inner way ), meditation helps to deliver you from spiritual and mental bondage. By transcending to a new perception of reality, a holistic way of life is achieved where spirit and matter become integrated. Such practices are encouraged as a means to achieve a healthy physical and spiritual life. So Religion is good for you.

[/Quote] Now you've just gone and given an example which applies to a minority of believers and tried to use it to justify a blanket statement about religion in general.

Smoking introduces nicotine into the body, this can provide feelings of happiness, relaxation, calmness and clarity. So smoking is good for you.

Science.

From a philosophical point of view . The Cartesian paradigm was based on the belief that scientific knowledge could achieve absolute and final certainty. In the philosophy of modern science it is recognised that all concepts, theories and findings are limited and approximate . Science can never offer any complete and definitive understanding of reality. Scientists don’t deal with truth-in the sense of exact correspondence between what is observed and the description of the observed phenomena. Scientists deliver a limited and approximate description of reality. Truth in that sense doesn’t exist .What scientist say are approximations- in spite of systematic observation and model building (Simple philosophy of

Epistemology )

 

[/Quote] I'm not sure you really understand what science is

In an earlier post I mentioned “Scientism “. I certainly do not reject science. But I reject Scientism. The following quote sums it up :

 

 

 

 

Holding onto it is an article of faith.

 

Faith is trust in a person or an idea. A person might put their trust in science whilst simultaneously have faith in their chosen religion. To do so is not an indication of mental illness.

 

What is Militant Atheism ?

 

MIlitant atheism is a particularly repugnant brand of prejudice against religion. .

Militant atheism( and I don’t just mean the Marxist Leninist kind ) is as repugnant as any brand of religious fundamentalism. It is clear to me,that the militant atheist is as unreasoning as the most idiotic creationist. Their intolerance is a mirror reflection of the bigotry of the religious extremist.

 

Militant atheism is a form of fanaticism. It is characterised by: intensity ,arrogance, ridicule , aggression ,insults and bullying.

 

Militant atheism targets: Christians ,Muslims, Jews,Hindus, Sikhs and others of a religious persuasion. An atheistic zealot does not discriminate between Christians,, Muslim and Jew in their prejudices. For the atheistic zealot all religions are denounced as irrational and therefore should be expunged .

It is my own view that the religious person should be free to practice their religion- in peace. Fundamentalism is the enemy of the humanity, not religion.

[/Quote]

Ah, the old Militant Atheism routine, it's always funny to hear this one. Notice how when you apply those characteristics (in bold) to theists, they're regarded as just regular Christians/Muslims/Jews/Scientologists/Hindus etc.

Those characteristics make an atheist an extremist and fanatic, yet for a theist it takes a lot more to class them as such.

Notes:

Set up as a defence against militant atheism.

[/Quote]

Note: Freedom From Atheism Foundation was set up as a weak sarcastic response to the well known (in America) Freedom From Religion Foundation.

FFRF have fought some large and expensive court cases to support the first amendment (mostly to do with government property and bodies wrongly endorsing Christianity), something which is quite a large scale problem across the pond.

In contrast, FFAF are just a Facebook page who like to complain that FFRF are persecuting Christianity itself. They provide no defence against anything.

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2016 at 01:17 ----------

 

I think it's worth pointing out that the figures given for the number of christians in the uk, for example, are a gross exagerration. The number of practising christians is probably one tenth of that figure, the rest being made up of nominal christians & people who vaguely subscribe to christian values but not to the central claims of the religion.

 

I know a chap who recently declared himself Christian simply because he thinks there's too many Muslims in the UK these days.

Edited December 14, 2016 by RootsBooster

[flamingjimmy]

Classifying religious beliefs as a form of mental illness is absurd

I'm gonna start off with this, because yay we agree

My use of the term was meant as a generalisation for the type of atheism exemplified by militant atheism /aggressive secularism .

But the fact that you equate atheism, even 'militant atheism' with secularism really makes me sad, right to my core, like you think secularism is anti religious. You see here's another thing you said in this post that I totally agree with:

We live in a multi-faith country and should be proud of it.

I agree 100% and I am very proud of it. The only reason this is possible is because of secularism, you (and not just you that's why I'm saying this on the forum and not as a direct message) should really learn up on what that word actually means.

 

If it weren't for the enlightenment deists and the atheists they tended to evolve into, and yes, plenty of warring Christian denominations that were terrified of being persecuted by the other kinds of Christians, collectively that came up with the concept as we know it we probably wouldn't be able to be proud of that.

 

Secularism is the only guarantor of religious freedom. None of the individual religions will do it for us.

Edited December 14, 2016 by flamingjimmy