Time to face up to the truth of religion?

[Cyclone]

I can see how he might confuse secularism and atheism.

 

Secularism is a belief system that rejects religion, or the belief that religion should not be part of the affairs of the state or part of public education.

 

Rejecting religion is quite close (but not identical) to rejecting the idea of gods and the supernatural.

Separation of state and church on the other hand is not, and it's a good idea which we haven't fully implemented.

[harvey19]

In answer to the thread title.

Some people have a belief in God others do not.

No amount of discussion on here will change that view.

[El Cid]

Interesting program on TV last night, Muslims like us, BBC2

 

Antone watch BBC2 these days.

[kingdom]

Why quote my post and respond to nothing I said?

 

Animals don't think like humans we are have a far higher intellect , we have morals but need to learn them , view the bible as a highway code for life

[unbeliever]

Animals don't think like humans we are have a far higher intellect , we have morals but need to learn them , view the bible as a highway code for life

 

None of that is relevant to anything we've been discussing.

Humans have been around for at least 100,000 years and your god showed up about 3000 years ago and told us a bunch of stuff which was blindingly obvious already, mixed in which a bunch of stuff which is plainly self-serving.

For some reason he though that the the illiterate peoples of bronze age Palestine would make better messengers than for example the people of China who could have written down what he said, but I digress.

 

You make a big thing about the 6th and 8th commandments, but fail to mention the absurdly self-serving nature of the first 4.

 

 

Very simple. You claim there must be a god because things must be created in order to exist. Who created God?

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2016 at 12:33 ----------

 

There's a famous quote, which I think I first read in "Brief History of Time": "turtles all the way down".

 

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

 

Perhaps the question of who created the creator can be similarly resolved with infinite regression.

Could it simply be creators all the way up?

Edited December 14, 2016 by unbeliever

[DnAuK]

None of that is relevant to anything we've been discussing.

Humans have been around for at least 100,000 years and your god showed up about 3000 years ago and told us a bunch of stuff which was blindingly obvious already, mixed in which a bunch of stuff which is plainly self-serving.

For some reason he though that the the illiterate peoples of bronze age Palestine would make better messengers than for example the people of China who could have written down what he said, but I digress.

 

You make a big thing about the 6th and 8th commandments, but fail to mention the absurdly self-serving nature of the first 4.

 

 

Very simple. You claim there must be a god because things must be created in order to exist. Who created God?

 

---------- Post added 14-12-2016 at 12:33 ----------

 

There's a famous quote, which I think I first read in "Brief History of Time": "turtles all the way down".

 

 

 

Perhaps the question of who created the creator can be similarly resolved with infinite regression.

Could it simply be creators all the way up?

 

I actually read that quote in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. Which neatly sidesteps the problem by having ther turtle swim (far less highbrow I know).

 

But does lead on to another rather insightful point about religion made by Pratchett. That if indeed the creator did create life on Earth in his own image then, given there are between 4 and 8 million times more species of beetle on this planet than there are humans, he must have been a beetle. Although a scientist like yourself would probably argue bacteria instead.

[Cyclone]

Animals don't think like humans we are have a far higher intellect , we have morals but need to learn them , view the bible as a highway code for life

 

We HAVE, but also need to learn morals? And you think the bible is a good source of that learning?

 

What makes you think that other animals can't demonstrate some form of morality? I'd suggest that we see it amongst other social primates, amongst elephants, amongst dolphins, and probably amongst other animals.

 

And we can't actually agree amongst ourselves what intelligence is or how to measure it, so whilst we certainly have a lot of advantages over most animals, a highly developed (group of) languages and extensive tool use, it's difficult to say that we are more intelligent.

[tinfoilhat]

Animals don't think like humans we are have a far higher intellect , we have morals but need to learn them , view the bible as a highway code for life

 

Basic

Instructions

Before

Leaving

Earth

 

Cap tip to the Love Guru.

[unbeliever]

I suppose infinite regression and evolution are not actually that far apart.

The false assumption made by the creationists is one can't create something more complex than oneself. This is incorrect.

 

Biological organisms have the facility to reproduce, i.e. copy themselves. Now they're going for a straight copy but sometimes there are mistakes. Usually these mistakes are damaging but occasionally they're accidentally beneficial. Rarer still they may be beneficial and also add complexity. Extra feature in the eye, extra finger or whatever.

Over billions of years this complexity builds it until it produces people and such.

 

So evolution does kind of solve the who created the creator problem through regression. It's not infinite though. Goes back about 4 billion years. All the way to proto-organic molecules so simple, that it's perfectly reasonable to contend that they assembled by chance.

 

Problem solved. No gods required, or indeed vaguely useful except in confusingly moving the problem and then pretending it's solved.

Edited December 14, 2016 by unbeliever

[Delayed]

I actually read that quote in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. Which neatly sidesteps the problem by having ther turtle swim (far less highbrow I know).

 

But does lead on to another rather insightful point about religion made by Pratchett. That if indeed the creator did create life on Earth in his own image then, given there are between 4 and 8 million times more species of beetle on this planet than there are humans, he must have been a beetle. Although a scientist like yourself would probably argue bacteria instead.

 

Not to be pedantic but God created Mankind in his own image, not life.

 

Genesis 1:27

 

If anyone reading this thread (and/or posting/not posting) has an interest Carols by Candlelight Services are held throughout December at Fulwood Church. It is proven to be very popular hence the number of services available :

 

https://www.fulwoodchurch.co.uk/

 

Everyone is Welcome!

Edited December 14, 2016 by Delayed